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Zombicide: Black Plague» Forums » Rules

Subject: Hold your nose question rss

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Gutripper
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So Hold your nose gives you a free search action (even in a street zone)after youve killed a zombie. Does this still apply if:
1. There are still zombies in the same zone w the survivor?
2. The zombie was killed w a ranged/magic attack outside the zone the survivor is in?
 
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Angelus Seniores
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1) you must kill all zombies before you can search in a zone, the skill isnt an exception.

2) it gives a free search in the zone where the zombie was killed, if you killed it from a distance you need to move into its zone to perform the search.
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Gutripper
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Thx Angelus!
 
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Eric Harman
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His first answer is absolutely Correct.

The second one is debatable. The skill doesn't really say in the zone where the zombie was killed.

Personally I play it that it works with ranged attacks. Otherwise the skill is pretty useless.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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We had this debate in another thread, and the consensus seemed to be that you go with the thematic reasoning to settle the ambiguity of the wording.

Thematically, you are holding your nose because you are searching the corpse of the Zombie you killed. Thus, it's fine to kill the Zombie at range, but you need to move to that Zone to perform the Search, and it follows all other restrictions of Searching (no Zombies in the Zone, only once per activation, etc.).
 
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Eric Harman
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Clipper wrote:
We had this debate in another thread, and the consensus seemed to be that you go with the thematic reasoning to settle the ambiguity of the wording.

Thematically, you are holding your nose because you are searching the corpse of the Zombie you killed. Thus, it's fine to kill the Zombie at range, but you need to move to that Zone to perform the Search, and it follows all other restrictions of Searching (no Zombies in the Zone, only once per activation, etc.).

I see the logic, but as I said, that makes the skill mostly useless.
Skills shouldnt ever be useless. Sometimes mechanics need to overrule fluff.

Another example of this is not ignoring dragon bile with fire spells.
Game balance > fluff
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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It's not mostly useless. It just means you can only use it when you kill all the Zombies in a Zone first.

Playing it that you can search the Zone you attacked from makes it almost a pure upgrade from Scavenger (except in the situation you have nothing to kill). Why have Scavenger if Hold Your Nose is better in almost every way? The trade-off of needing to reach the Zone where you killed the Zombie makes the Skills different from each other and works quite well.

Also, I have no clue how you would thematically describe being able to Search a Street Zone just because you killed a Zombie somewhere else.

This isn't similar to fire spells not igniting Dragon Bile. Dragon Bile may need a sustained flame to reach its ignition temperature. If any spark could light it, then dragons would be highly volatile beings. Thus, magical fireballs may not last long enough, or generate enough heat, to ignite the Dragon Bile. There is no such simple description to explain searching a completely different Zone just because you killed a Zombie 3 Zones away from you.
 
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Derek VDG
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Clipper wrote:
It's not mostly useless. It just means you can only use it when you kill all the Zombies in a Zone first.

Playing it that you can search the Zone you attacked from makes it almost a pure upgrade from Scavenger (except in the situation you have nothing to kill). Why have Scavenger if Hold Your Nose is better in almost every way? The trade-off of needing to reach the Zone where you killed the Zombie makes the Skills different from each other and works quite well.

Also, I have no clue how you would thematically describe being able to Search a Street Zone just because you killed a Zombie somewhere else.



your premise is a bit off. Why have Bloodlust: Melee/Ranged when Bloodlust: Combat is better? Bloodlust:Melee is a pure upgrade to bloodlust: Melee/Ranged. Same goes for Frenzy and Reaper. Why have +1 Damage: Melee, when SuperStrength is clearly superior? The fact is, not all skills are balanced to each other.

Keep in mind the differences between Scavenger and Hold Your Nose. 1) Scavenger can search as long as the zone they are in has no zombies.
2) Hold Your Nose requires spending at least 1 action to kill a zombie. You still need to manage to kill a Zombie, and the zone you are going to search cannot have zombies in it.

Really, in no way is Hold Your Nose better than Scavenger. Scavenger is hands down 'better' than Hold Your Nose, since it has way fewer restrictions. That does not make Hold Your Nose useless, though. It is still a useful skill. And, it technically does not require the Survivor to search in the zone that the zombie was killed in: Just that they killed a zombie during their turn and that there are no zombies in the zone they search.

If you want to make a thematic argument, say that the Survivor is searching a previously 'killed' zombie (or corpse) in the zone they are in. Perhaps when killing a zombie (not necessarily in the same zone) it reminded the Survivor that sometimes the corpses have stuff.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Scavenger requires an action too. The alternate version of Hold Your Nose gives you an Attack and a Search for a single Action, provided the attack kills a Zombie. That is purely better than Scavenger, which only gives you a Search for a single Action, except in the situation you have nothing that you can kill.

Requiring you to go to the Zone where you killed the Zombie is not a big restriction and differentiates the Skills much more. It makes more sense thematically, and it fits the wording of Hold Your Nose better. I am certain this is what is intended.
 
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Eric Harman
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Requiring you to clear a zone makes scavenger strictly better than hold your nose.

Early in the game, most of the time zones will be cleared before your turn. Late in the game, you'll likely not have enough actions to clear a zone by yourself. At best you may get a free search once every 6 turns.
I've played it both ways. And I've seen a whole 1 search granted from hold your nose in several games from the more conservative interpretation.

Of course, without an official answer, it's up to every group to decide how they want to use it.
But I don't use the conservative interpretation, because if you have to use 2+ actions to move to get a "free" search, it makes it by far the worst search skill in the game.

With my interpretation it's roughly equivalent to +1 card.

Frankly, I'm not worried about being op with skills like +1 damage, super strength, and iron rain/mana rain/barbarian existing.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Cooperton wrote:
Of course, without an official answer, it's up to every group to decide how they want to use it.
But I don't use the conservative interpretation, because if you have to use 2+ actions to move to get a "free" search, it makes it by far the worst search skill in the game.

I have no problem with anyone laying that way. However, the question is about which way the developers intended the Skill to be used, and given all indications, the phrase 'the Zone' in Hold Your Nose is almost certainly meant to refer to the one where the Zombie was killed.

Is the Skill harder to use at the Red Danger Level? Yes. However, the only character I own that has Hold Your Nose - Dr. Stormcrow - has it as their Blue Level Skill, so this will still help him out greatly at the start of the game. He's most suited to Melee early on (due to his Dagger Body Slot), so he doesn't have to move to use Hold Your Nose either.

Are there other characters in the guest boxes I don't own that would seemingly need the overpowered version of the Skill? If not, then the weaker version seems very appropriate as a Blue Level Skill.
 
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Eric Harman
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Clearly we each have our own, perfectly valid interpretation, which was kinda my original point. The only other point I feel the need to highlight is the following:

I don't think my interpretation is overpowered. I believe it works as intended. With a more relaxed interpretation of "zone" a character with hold your nose gets one free search per turn. On most, but not all, turns.
I feel that any stricter interpretation makes the skill massively underpowered. Granting: on average, one free search per game is not an appropriate level for a blue skill. It's garbage.
So theres one interpretation that makes this skill one of the best search skills in the game, and one interpretation that makes it pretty much useless.

I would urge anyone considering how this skill is supposed to work to play test both versions, and see which they feel is the most appropriate.
 
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Brian
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Cooperton wrote:
Granting: on average, one free search per game is not an appropriate level for a blue skill. It's garbage.
You keep saying this, but my experience has been that melee weapons get used MUCH more then ranged or magic for most characters and I don't see anything that pushes stormcrow to ranged weapons. I haven't actually played with Stormcrow, but when I do he will be able to search the bodies of the zombies he kills as listed above, not search the barren streets because he killed a zombie over there. If my experience radically differs from my expectations (I get less then 3 searches per 4 turns) I will start up a thread discussing 'Hold your Nose'. But may I suggest that if you are gearing Dr Stormcrow with ranged weapons and then complaining that his skill is useless I view it a lot like someone gearing Xena with ranged weapons and complaining about Superstrength not affecting bows, or making similar complaints about +1 Die Melee, or +1 to Dice roll melee... Mainly 'experience results from user error'.
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