$20.00
Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
33 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » General

Subject: Too much time spent on just determining where to put monsters within range rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Aaron Velox
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmb
I don't know if this is just me, but when my group played, we spent a bunch of time just trying to determine where a monster goes and how much it needs to be "within range."

For example, there was a point where there was a line of 3 different investigators each occupying a space, and a monster in a space at the back of the line. The attack event said it had to be within 3 spaces of range of as many investigators as possible. The monster was already in range of 3 different investigators occupying 3 different spaces, but we didn't know how to move it. We didn't know if we were supposed to leave the monster there since it was in range of all the investigators already, or move it to the investigator occupying the middle space between the other two investigators, that way there was an investigator on both sides in addition to the space it was on. We decided on the latter. Was that right?

Another time, we had the ghost, who can move through walls. It was told to move to an adjacent space to be within range of as many investigators as possible. But this would be for an attack event. Would the ghost still be able to attack through the wall to get at the investigator in the adjacent room? Or is its ability to go through walls exclusive to just moving? Again, we decided on the latter and said that it wasn't within range of an investigator. But by that decision, we probably would have thought longer on how to move it.

But regardless, we felt some of the action descriptions should have been more clear, instead of just relying on saying "range" or "adjacent" and assuming no problems would emerge.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christina Crouch
United Kingdom
Tadley
Hampshire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If the Monster is already in range of the maximum number of investigators, it doesn't move.

Just remember that monsters can't see through doors for range.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Watson
Scotland
Edinburgh
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Presumably even ghosts (that can move through walls) cannot count range through walls.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Velox
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmb
malibu_babe_28 wrote:
If the Monster is already in range of the maximum number of investigators, it doesn't move.

Just remember that monsters can't see through doors for range.


But where exactly is that exact rule that states the monster doesn't move if already in range? Wouldn't it make more sense if it was in a space that had an investigator as close to it as possible?

Also, for that first example it all happened in the hallways. Doors wasn't an issue.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stefan Tymoshyshyn
England
Liskeard
Cornwall
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It usually says to move up to 2 spaces, so 0 moves is "up to 2 spaces".
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
soak man
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
See, I have always moved the monster as close as possible even when "within range" is stated because it's sort of cheating the game if the next time a monster moves it can't reach you because it is too far away. If the only goal of a monster is to kill you, I personally don't think it would stop as far away as possible to attack. It would try to close that distance.

As for the ghost, since the ability specifies that it can MOVE through walls, I wouldn't let it attack through them as that isn't what it says. I think it would say "can move and attack through walls" if that's what it meant.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
SmallRobot Painting
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
yeah, I have been playing it that I move the monsters to as close as possible when it states 'within range'

I do however always end up with a pile up of monsters on 1 investigator..
Maybe not moving all the way when it states 'move to within range' and just stopping when the monster is within 3 space could be the issue...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Cantor
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Caveat: I played my first game last night.

But the way I approached it was that if a monster can attack from range based on what the app is saying, it's not going to go all the way to an investigator's space, since that just makes it more vulnerable to a melee attack back.

So if it literally just says to get in range of as many as possible and it's already in range of 1, and can't get in range of 2, then I left it where it was. I tried to do what was most beneficial to the monster, given the usual Golden Rule of Arkham.

The biggest trouble I had was constantly forgetting doors block range, so I would spend a minute looking at the board, and then realize there was nothing I needed to move.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jebstone Boppman
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
the app is fairly descriptive so you just have to follow what it tells you. It's an AI system so it can never make perfect moves based on what you've done, so it's been setup to give the game it's best chance of winning.

Sometimes it will ask you to keep the monster at range. Do what it tells you, don't move the monster onto a space with investigators, keep it where it is if it started it's mythos phase meeting this ranged criteria - it may result in some type of ranged spell attack, etc.

Sometimes it will ask you to move onto the same space of an investigator. Do what it tells you, move the monster onto the same space of an investigator.

Sometimes you cannot meet the criteria it asks, so it will usually just make you move towards someone and not take any further action.

Luckily it leaves very little to judgement call, and includes some type of general caveat to tie break who the Monster is focused on (worse case scenario you just volunteer up an Investigator to suffer the attack in a complete tie)


The primary rule for range that you have to keep in mind is
3 spaces, broken by walls and doors.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Velox
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmb
Jebstone wrote:
Sometimes it will ask you to keep the monster at range. Do what it tells you, don't move the monster onto a space with investigators, keep it where it is if it started it's mythos phase meeting this ranged criteria - it may result in some type of ranged spell attack, etc.


But why though? Where exactly in the rulebooks or app does it say you have to keep the monster on its space if it's already in range? It would make sense for the monster to not move if already on the space with the investigator and there are no other investigators in range, but I don't see it for this case. The point of the monsters is to get to the investigators. Yes, it can still attack if in range, but if on the same space as the investigator or as close as possible, it would make it difficult for the investigator to escape without wanting to fight, which I feel is more correct.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Cantor
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
StarryAqua wrote:

But why though? Where exactly in the rulebooks or app does it say you have to keep the monster on its space if it's already in range?


If the literal text is "move monster up to 2 spaces to be in range of as many investigators as possible", then a monster already in range of as many investigators as it could possibly reach would move 0 spaces. That's "up to 2". Just do what it says.

StarryAqua wrote:

The point of the monsters is to get to the investigators. Yes, it can still attack if in range, but if on the same space as the investigator or as close as possible, it would make it difficult for the investigator to escape without wanting to fight, which I feel is more correct.


Think of what a typical Witch that would cast spells would do. Would she engage in melee? No, she'd stay in the shadows and throw fireballs.

Obviously not every monster can be ruled thematically, but in practice monsters that attack at range are trying to avoid grappling with you. They don't know evade checks exist and that isn't their basic purpose.
4 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
StarryAqua wrote:
Jebstone wrote:
Sometimes it will ask you to keep the monster at range. Do what it tells you, don't move the monster onto a space with investigators, keep it where it is if it started it's mythos phase meeting this ranged criteria - it may result in some type of ranged spell attack, etc.


But why though? Where exactly in the rulebooks or app does it say you have to keep the monster on its space if it's already in range? It would make sense for the monster to not move if already on the space with the investigator and there are no other investigators in range, but I don't see it for this case. The point of the monsters is to get to the investigators. Yes, it can still attack if in range, but if on the same space as the investigator or as close as possible, it would make it difficult for the investigator to escape without wanting to fight, which I feel is more correct.



The monster is trying to get in range to hit them. It doesn't care about anything else, it's a monster. If the app said "Move the monster to the same square as the investigator so they can't escape" then that's what you do. But it doesn't, it says move up to X spaces until you are in range. Its clearly implied that they are getting in range and stopping at that point, so if they are already in range they don't move.

If the monster was on the same square as the investigator, and the app said "move them up to 3 spaces so they are on the same square as an investigator" would you sit and argue for half an hour that you should walk the monster around the board a bit to use up the movement and end it on the square it started, because monsters like exercise too? Hopefully not, and this is the same.

The app has no idea where they are - you might have all pushed them repeatedly for all it knows!

It may not implicitly state anywhere in the rules that if the monster is in range, and the app says move them within range then you don't need to physically move them if they are already in range - but common sense and a grasp of English should be enough to make it obvious what is meant by the sentence.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin Colm
msg tools
mbmb
Jebstone wrote:


The primary rule for range that you have to keep in mind is
3 spaces, broken by walls and doors.


Minor point, but something we also sometimes forget: there is no 'line of sight' in this game, so range can be counted up to three spaces away even around corners as long as it doesn't pass through a wall or door.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Velox
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmb
kniknax wrote:
It may not implicitly state anywhere in the rules that if the monster is in range, and the app says move them within range then you don't need to physically move them if they are already in range - but common sense and a grasp of English should be enough to make it obvious what is meant by the sentence.


I don't know. Just seems kind of stupid to not voluntarily place monsters as close to investigators as possible, considering it's still within range by doing so. I'll probably just make a house rule if it continues being an issue.

Also, a little less of the insults please? Thank you.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jebstone Boppman
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
StarryAqua wrote:
kniknax wrote:
It may not implicitly state anywhere in the rules that if the monster is in range, and the app says move them within range then you don't need to physically move them if they are already in range - but common sense and a grasp of English should be enough to make it obvious what is meant by the sentence.


I don't know. Just seems kind of stupid to not voluntarily place monsters as close to investigators as possible, considering it's still within range by doing so. I'll probably just make a house rule if it continues being an issue.

Also, a little less of the insults please? Thank you.


You've got to remember that this app is taking the role of and replacing the keeper player from the 1st edition.

They've programmed the AI with this in mind to, again, give the game it's best chance of winning, just as The Keeper would do if you had a human playing the role, and the game has been balanced this way too. You may involuntarily make the game easier or more difficult by reading too much into it's instruction and taking more of the game into your own hands and out of the app's when it comes to controlling the monsters.

For example, if I was playing as the keeper in 1st ed, would I really want to just rush all my monsters as close to the investigators with melee weapons as soon as possible so they could all wail on them to death on the next investigator phase? Probably not, unless they needed to serve a purpose of slowing the players down.

Why would i willingly throw away a minion that excels at ranged abilities? This is what the app is trying to do with these instructions.

Some monsters it plays aggressively, they exist to run in, hit and be fodder, but theres' those few the app tries to keep around and as a nuisance to the player, maybe taking them out of position or further away from an objective/door while doing so.

When you begin to read too much into the instruction and start to theorize what it could mean and that moving it 2 spots or none "isn't enough" you really begin to run the risk of breaking the game for yourself.

Lets say a scenario arises where you continue to believe monsters should all rush the investigators, and you end up with a situation that 4 or 5 monsters are on the same tile as your investigator(s).

The possible outcomes of this scenario to you as a player is as follows:
1. you've given yourself a LOT more work to do during horror phase and evade checks
2. you've potentially killed your investigator when 4-5 monsters attack them at once, ruining the flow and balance of the game.
3. you've potentially crippled the app's forces if you have some type of AOE attack to kill them all off, ruining the flow and balance of the game.
4. you get past them and run to the objective with little to no resistance, ruining the flow and balance of the game.


At the end of the day, the app should be easy to follow with little room for questions or issues outside of rule keyword clarifications in the rules - just follow what it tells you to do and it will keep your games running smoothly and keep you from getting frustrated thinking you might be missing out on something the app isn't telling you.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dean L
United Kingdom
Coventry
West Midlands
flag msg tools
StarryAqua wrote:

But where exactly is that exact rule that states the monster doesn't move if already in range? Wouldn't it make more sense if it was in a space that had an investigator as close to it as possible?


soakman wrote:
See, I have always moved the monster as close as possible even when "within range" is stated because it's sort of cheating the game if the next time a monster moves it can't reach you because it is too far away.


SmallRobot wrote:
yeah, I have been playing it that I move the monsters to as close as possible when it states 'within range'


Out of interest, what do you guys do when it says "Move the monster three spaces to be in range of as many investigators as possible" but the monster can't get in range of any investigators at all? Do you move it anyway or hit the "unable to move into range" or whatever button on the app?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Arnone
United States
Parkville
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Deano2099 wrote:
StarryAqua wrote:

But where exactly is that exact rule that states the monster doesn't move if already in range? Wouldn't it make more sense if it was in a space that had an investigator as close to it as possible?


soakman wrote:
See, I have always moved the monster as close as possible even when "within range" is stated because it's sort of cheating the game if the next time a monster moves it can't reach you because it is too far away.


SmallRobot wrote:
yeah, I have been playing it that I move the monsters to as close as possible when it states 'within range'


Out of interest, what do you guys do when it says "Move the monster three spaces to be in range of as many investigators as possible" but the monster can't get in range of any investigators at all? Do you move it anyway or hit the "unable to move into range" or whatever button on the app?



Unable to move into range. It will generally then have the monster move normally but not attack from what I've seen.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Velox
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmb
Jebstone wrote:
You've got to remember that this app is taking the role of and replacing the keeper player from the 1st edition.

They've programmed the AI with this in mind to, again, give the game it's best chance of winning, just as The Keeper would do if you had a human playing the role, and the game has been balanced this way too. You may involuntarily make the game easier or more difficult by reading too much into it's instruction and taking more of the game into your own hands and out of the app's when it comes to controlling the monsters.

For example, if I was playing as the keeper in 1st ed, would I really want to just rush all my monsters as close to the investigators with melee weapons as soon as possible so they could all wail on them to death on the next investigator phase? Probably not, unless they needed to serve a purpose of slowing the players down.

Why would i willingly throw away a minion that excels at ranged abilities? This is what the app is trying to do with these instructions.

Some monsters it plays aggressively, they exist to run in, hit and be fodder, but theres' those few the app tries to keep around and as a nuisance to the player, maybe taking them out of position or further away from an objective/door while doing so.

When you begin to read too much into the instruction and start to theorize what it could mean and that moving it 2 spots or none "isn't enough" you really begin to run the risk of breaking the game for yourself.

Lets say a scenario arises where you continue to believe monsters should all rush the investigators, and you end up with a situation that 4 or 5 monsters are on the same tile as your investigator(s).

The possible outcomes of this scenario to you as a player is as follows:
1. you've given yourself a LOT more work to do during horror phase and evade checks
2. you've potentially killed your investigator when 4-5 monsters attack them at once, ruining the flow and balance of the game.
3. you've potentially crippled the app's forces if you have some type of AOE attack to kill them all off, ruining the flow and balance of the game.
4. you get past them and run to the objective with little to no resistance, ruining the flow and balance of the game.


At the end of the day, the app should be easy to follow with little room for questions or issues outside of rule keyword clarifications in the rules - just follow what it tells you to do and it will keep your games running smoothly and keep you from getting frustrated thinking you might be missing out on something the app isn't telling you.


I suppose put that way it does seem to make more sense. But in that case, it seems like we're all playing double roles: that of our investigators, and best placement of monsters to attack said investigators, thus best trying to cripple ourselves. Granted, I never played the first edition so I don't know if it was like that too.

I'm not afraid to admit that I think too hard into games. That's because I always want to play properly; I want to play exactly as the rules clarify. When I played with our group, we all had these questions about range and not knowing what to do with some monsters. These were mainly the ones that said to move "within range of as many as possible". And I know that if I were follow these rules of just keeping within range and leaving it at that, there's going to be some arguments about it in our group since we all felt otherwise.

I suppose in the end I feel we're relying too much on control of the monsters, and unknowing exactly the "correct" spot to place the monster gets to me.


Deano2099 wrote:
Out of interest, what do you guys do when it says "Move the monster three spaces to be in range of as many investigators as possible" but the monster can't get in range of any investigators at all? Do you move it anyway or hit the "unable to move into range" or whatever button on the app?



I move the monster towards wherever the investigators are in the mansion, then I say there aren't any investigators in range. Doesn't seem correct that a monster doesn't move at all when no investigators are in range. Because if that was the case and monsters aren't supposed to move, then investigators can just plan their movements in regards to avoiding range detection. Some may argue that it makes sense the monsters don't move because they don't know where the investigators are, but the players still do. Movement to avoid detection can still be planned.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Cantor
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
StarryAqua wrote:

I suppose put that way it does seem to make more sense. But in that case, it seems like we're all playing double roles: that of our investigators, and best placement of monsters to attack said investigators, thus best trying to cripple ourselves. Granted, I never played the first edition so I don't know if it was like that too.


It doesn't really have that quality at all. There are lots of soloable games like that, Runebound 3e for one, but this one isn't. Just do what the text says, exactly, and the vast majority of the time you're not going to have to get creative and make any decisions.

You're totally overanalyzing this because you're used to having to do this in other games, I think.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jebstone Boppman
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
StarryAqua wrote:
Jebstone wrote:
You've got to remember that this app is taking the role of and replacing the keeper player from the 1st edition.

They've programmed the AI with this in mind to, again, give the game it's best chance of winning, just as The Keeper would do if you had a human playing the role, and the game has been balanced this way too. You may involuntarily make the game easier or more difficult by reading too much into it's instruction and taking more of the game into your own hands and out of the app's when it comes to controlling the monsters.

For example, if I was playing as the keeper in 1st ed, would I really want to just rush all my monsters as close to the investigators with melee weapons as soon as possible so they could all wail on them to death on the next investigator phase? Probably not, unless they needed to serve a purpose of slowing the players down.

Why would i willingly throw away a minion that excels at ranged abilities? This is what the app is trying to do with these instructions.

Some monsters it plays aggressively, they exist to run in, hit and be fodder, but theres' those few the app tries to keep around and as a nuisance to the player, maybe taking them out of position or further away from an objective/door while doing so.

When you begin to read too much into the instruction and start to theorize what it could mean and that moving it 2 spots or none "isn't enough" you really begin to run the risk of breaking the game for yourself.

Lets say a scenario arises where you continue to believe monsters should all rush the investigators, and you end up with a situation that 4 or 5 monsters are on the same tile as your investigator(s).

The possible outcomes of this scenario to you as a player is as follows:
1. you've given yourself a LOT more work to do during horror phase and evade checks
2. you've potentially killed your investigator when 4-5 monsters attack them at once, ruining the flow and balance of the game.
3. you've potentially crippled the app's forces if you have some type of AOE attack to kill them all off, ruining the flow and balance of the game.
4. you get past them and run to the objective with little to no resistance, ruining the flow and balance of the game.


At the end of the day, the app should be easy to follow with little room for questions or issues outside of rule keyword clarifications in the rules - just follow what it tells you to do and it will keep your games running smoothly and keep you from getting frustrated thinking you might be missing out on something the app isn't telling you.


I suppose put that way it does seem to make more sense. But in that case, it seems like we're all playing double roles: that of our investigators, and best placement of monsters to attack said investigators, thus best trying to cripple ourselves. Granted, I never played the first edition so I don't know if it was like that too.

I'm not afraid to admit that I think too hard into games. That's because I always want to play properly; I want to play exactly as the rules clarify. When I played with our group, we all had these questions about range and not knowing what to do with some monsters. These were mainly the ones that said to move "within range of as many as possible". And I know that if I were follow these rules of just keeping within range and leaving it at that, there's going to be some arguments about it in our group since we all felt otherwise.

I suppose in the end I feel we're relying too much on control of the monsters, and unknowing exactly the "correct" spot to place the monster gets to me.


Deano2099 wrote:
Out of interest, what do you guys do when it says "Move the monster three spaces to be in range of as many investigators as possible" but the monster can't get in range of any investigators at all? Do you move it anyway or hit the "unable to move into range" or whatever button on the app?



I move the monster towards wherever the investigators are in the mansion, then I say there aren't any investigators in range. Doesn't seem correct that a monster doesn't move at all when no investigators are in range. Because if that was the case and monsters aren't supposed to move, then investigators can just plan their movements in regards to avoiding range detection. Some may argue that it makes sense the monsters don't move because they don't know where the investigators are, but the players still do. Movement to avoid detection can still be planned.



Again, for this game you don't have to worry about any layers of complexity or rules because of the app. You don't need to play a double role, you can just concentrate on yourself and your interests as a character. At most you will have to be the referee for tie breakers in rules situations, and that mostly comes down to a character offering to take a hit cause they can afford to.

It's a traditional AI system, similar to Gears of War and the Descent App for a more recent example.

Follow the instructions, it won't always be optimal for the "Game", but the App/AI system exists for this reason. It's to take the workload off the player while still providing an opponent.

You just do what it tells you to do and that's that, if it gives you an advantage then that's ok, sometimes human players make mistakes too - but you don't need to burden yourself or your play with thinking you have to babysit the app.

It should improve your experience with the game, and make it less of a burden to go through your mythos phase, letting you guys get back to your investigator phase and put some spawn back into hell
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
soak man
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
More Mellotron wrote:
Caveat: I played my first game last night.

But the way I approached it was that if a monster can attack from range based on what the app is saying, it's not going to go all the way to an investigator's space, since that just makes it more vulnerable to a melee attack back.

So if it literally just says to get in range of as many as possible and it's already in range of 1, and can't get in range of 2, then I left it where it was. I tried to do what was most beneficial to the monster, given the usual Golden Rule of Arkham.

The biggest trouble I had was constantly forgetting doors block range, so I would spend a minute looking at the board, and then realize there was nothing I needed to move.


The other problem with this though is that not every monster who CAN attack ranged does every turn. I do see what you mean, but being on your space is usually more beneficial for a monster as they force evade checks if you want to move or do anything but attack.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
soak man
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Jebstone wrote:
StarryAqua wrote:
Jebstone wrote:
You've got to remember that this app is taking the role of and replacing the keeper player from the 1st edition.

They've programmed the AI with this in mind to, again, give the game it's best chance of winning, just as The Keeper would do if you had a human playing the role, and the game has been balanced this way too. You may involuntarily make the game easier or more difficult by reading too much into it's instruction and taking more of the game into your own hands and out of the app's when it comes to controlling the monsters.

For example, if I was playing as the keeper in 1st ed, would I really want to just rush all my monsters as close to the investigators with melee weapons as soon as possible so they could all wail on them to death on the next investigator phase? Probably not, unless they needed to serve a purpose of slowing the players down.

Why would i willingly throw away a minion that excels at ranged abilities? This is what the app is trying to do with these instructions.

Some monsters it plays aggressively, they exist to run in, hit and be fodder, but theres' those few the app tries to keep around and as a nuisance to the player, maybe taking them out of position or further away from an objective/door while doing so.

When you begin to read too much into the instruction and start to theorize what it could mean and that moving it 2 spots or none "isn't enough" you really begin to run the risk of breaking the game for yourself.

Lets say a scenario arises where you continue to believe monsters should all rush the investigators, and you end up with a situation that 4 or 5 monsters are on the same tile as your investigator(s).

The possible outcomes of this scenario to you as a player is as follows:
1. you've given yourself a LOT more work to do during horror phase and evade checks
2. you've potentially killed your investigator when 4-5 monsters attack them at once, ruining the flow and balance of the game.
3. you've potentially crippled the app's forces if you have some type of AOE attack to kill them all off, ruining the flow and balance of the game.
4. you get past them and run to the objective with little to no resistance, ruining the flow and balance of the game.


At the end of the day, the app should be easy to follow with little room for questions or issues outside of rule keyword clarifications in the rules - just follow what it tells you to do and it will keep your games running smoothly and keep you from getting frustrated thinking you might be missing out on something the app isn't telling you.


I suppose put that way it does seem to make more sense. But in that case, it seems like we're all playing double roles: that of our investigators, and best placement of monsters to attack said investigators, thus best trying to cripple ourselves. Granted, I never played the first edition so I don't know if it was like that too.

I'm not afraid to admit that I think too hard into games. That's because I always want to play properly; I want to play exactly as the rules clarify. When I played with our group, we all had these questions about range and not knowing what to do with some monsters. These were mainly the ones that said to move "within range of as many as possible". And I know that if I were follow these rules of just keeping within range and leaving it at that, there's going to be some arguments about it in our group since we all felt otherwise.

I suppose in the end I feel we're relying too much on control of the monsters, and unknowing exactly the "correct" spot to place the monster gets to me.


Deano2099 wrote:
Out of interest, what do you guys do when it says "Move the monster three spaces to be in range of as many investigators as possible" but the monster can't get in range of any investigators at all? Do you move it anyway or hit the "unable to move into range" or whatever button on the app?



I move the monster towards wherever the investigators are in the mansion, then I say there aren't any investigators in range. Doesn't seem correct that a monster doesn't move at all when no investigators are in range. Because if that was the case and monsters aren't supposed to move, then investigators can just plan their movements in regards to avoiding range detection. Some may argue that it makes sense the monsters don't move because they don't know where the investigators are, but the players still do. Movement to avoid detection can still be planned.



Again, for this game you don't have to worry about any layers of complexity or rules because of the app. You don't need to play a double role, you can just concentrate on yourself and your interests as a character. At most you will have to be the referee for tie breakers in rules situations, and that mostly comes down to a character offering to take a hit cause they can afford to.

It's a traditional AI system, similar to Gears of War and the Descent App for a more recent example.

Follow the instructions, it won't always be optimal for the "Game", but the App/AI system exists for this reason. It's to take the workload off the player while still providing an opponent.

You just do what it tells you to do and that's that, if it gives you an advantage then that's ok, sometimes human players make mistakes too - but you don't need to burden yourself or your play with thinking you have to babysit the app.

It should improve your experience with the game, and make it less of a burden to go through your mythos phase, letting you guys get back to your investigator phase and put some spawn back into hell


And again, many monsters have both ranged and melee attacks. IMO, it is not fair to ONLY move that druid one space so he is within range, and then next turn say, "oops, he can't reach you with the melee attack the ai is telling me to perform now!"

You're assuming that all monsters are either ranged or melee, and they are not. There is no guidebook that says treat "x monster" as a ranged monster and "x monster" as a melee monster.

You shouldn't assume that witches are ranged for example, the spells in the Arkham Files line are varied. Look at Wrack which comes from MoM 2E. It is a SHORT RANGE spell. You have to be on the same space (check the dagger vs. gun icon on the spell).

Why is it melee? Because its base damage is higher. It is riskier and therefore provides more bang for you buck.

It'd be cool if you didn't act like people who are doing it differently just haven't thought it out. I have and I don't see why any monster (short of having completely different rules for different monsters) would not move as close to the investigators as they could.

Why you think basing monster movement on what you would subjectively do as a keeper in 1E makes more sense then anyone else's logic is beyond me.

As stated earlier, "up to" means "up to." And that phrase, as far as I've seen is only used with the monsters where it says "as many investigators as posible" which makes sense because you might overshoot that option otherwise. However, most other monsters says "toward" in the description and "toward" is listed in the keywords on the reference meaning "In such a way that the number of spaces is always decreased" or somesuch.

Most "ranged monsters" I believe, say move the Witch 2 spaces towards the closest investigator within range. It does not say, move the witch up to 2 spaces until you are within range of the closest investigator.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jebstone Boppman
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
soakman wrote:
Jebstone wrote:
StarryAqua wrote:
Jebstone wrote:
You've got to remember that this app is taking the role of and replacing the keeper player from the 1st edition.

They've programmed the AI with this in mind to, again, give the game it's best chance of winning, just as The Keeper would do if you had a human playing the role, and the game has been balanced this way too. You may involuntarily make the game easier or more difficult by reading too much into it's instruction and taking more of the game into your own hands and out of the app's when it comes to controlling the monsters.

For example, if I was playing as the keeper in 1st ed, would I really want to just rush all my monsters as close to the investigators with melee weapons as soon as possible so they could all wail on them to death on the next investigator phase? Probably not, unless they needed to serve a purpose of slowing the players down.

Why would i willingly throw away a minion that excels at ranged abilities? This is what the app is trying to do with these instructions.

Some monsters it plays aggressively, they exist to run in, hit and be fodder, but theres' those few the app tries to keep around and as a nuisance to the player, maybe taking them out of position or further away from an objective/door while doing so.

When you begin to read too much into the instruction and start to theorize what it could mean and that moving it 2 spots or none "isn't enough" you really begin to run the risk of breaking the game for yourself.

Lets say a scenario arises where you continue to believe monsters should all rush the investigators, and you end up with a situation that 4 or 5 monsters are on the same tile as your investigator(s).

The possible outcomes of this scenario to you as a player is as follows:
1. you've given yourself a LOT more work to do during horror phase and evade checks
2. you've potentially killed your investigator when 4-5 monsters attack them at once, ruining the flow and balance of the game.
3. you've potentially crippled the app's forces if you have some type of AOE attack to kill them all off, ruining the flow and balance of the game.
4. you get past them and run to the objective with little to no resistance, ruining the flow and balance of the game.


At the end of the day, the app should be easy to follow with little room for questions or issues outside of rule keyword clarifications in the rules - just follow what it tells you to do and it will keep your games running smoothly and keep you from getting frustrated thinking you might be missing out on something the app isn't telling you.


I suppose put that way it does seem to make more sense. But in that case, it seems like we're all playing double roles: that of our investigators, and best placement of monsters to attack said investigators, thus best trying to cripple ourselves. Granted, I never played the first edition so I don't know if it was like that too.

I'm not afraid to admit that I think too hard into games. That's because I always want to play properly; I want to play exactly as the rules clarify. When I played with our group, we all had these questions about range and not knowing what to do with some monsters. These were mainly the ones that said to move "within range of as many as possible". And I know that if I were follow these rules of just keeping within range and leaving it at that, there's going to be some arguments about it in our group since we all felt otherwise.

I suppose in the end I feel we're relying too much on control of the monsters, and unknowing exactly the "correct" spot to place the monster gets to me.


Deano2099 wrote:
Out of interest, what do you guys do when it says "Move the monster three spaces to be in range of as many investigators as possible" but the monster can't get in range of any investigators at all? Do you move it anyway or hit the "unable to move into range" or whatever button on the app?



I move the monster towards wherever the investigators are in the mansion, then I say there aren't any investigators in range. Doesn't seem correct that a monster doesn't move at all when no investigators are in range. Because if that was the case and monsters aren't supposed to move, then investigators can just plan their movements in regards to avoiding range detection. Some may argue that it makes sense the monsters don't move because they don't know where the investigators are, but the players still do. Movement to avoid detection can still be planned.



Again, for this game you don't have to worry about any layers of complexity or rules because of the app. You don't need to play a double role, you can just concentrate on yourself and your interests as a character. At most you will have to be the referee for tie breakers in rules situations, and that mostly comes down to a character offering to take a hit cause they can afford to.

It's a traditional AI system, similar to Gears of War and the Descent App for a more recent example.

Follow the instructions, it won't always be optimal for the "Game", but the App/AI system exists for this reason. It's to take the workload off the player while still providing an opponent.

You just do what it tells you to do and that's that, if it gives you an advantage then that's ok, sometimes human players make mistakes too - but you don't need to burden yourself or your play with thinking you have to babysit the app.

It should improve your experience with the game, and make it less of a burden to go through your mythos phase, letting you guys get back to your investigator phase and put some spawn back into hell


And again, many monsters have both ranged and melee attacks. IMO, it is not fair to ONLY move that druid one space so he is within range, and then next turn say, "oops, he can't reach you with the melee attack the ai is telling me to perform now!"

You're assuming that all monsters are either ranged or melee, and they are not. There is no guidebook that says treat "x monster" as a ranged monster and "x monster" as a melee monster.

You shouldn't assume that witches are ranged for example, the spells in the Arkham Files line are varied. Look at Wrack which comes from MoM 2E. It is a SHORT RANGE spell. You have to be on the same space (check the dagger vs. gun icon on the spell).

Why is it melee? Because its base damage is higher. It is riskier and therefore provides more bang for you buck.

It'd be cool if you didn't act like people who are doing it differently just haven't thought it out. I have and I don't see why any monster (short of having completely different rules for different monsters) would not move as close to the investigators as they could.

Why you think basing monster movement on what you would subjectively do as a keeper in 1E makes more sense then anyone else's logic is beyond me.

As stated earlier, "up to" means "up to." And that phrase, as far as I've seen is only used with the monsters where it says "as many investigators as posible" which makes sense because you might overshoot that option otherwise. However, most other monsters says "toward" in the description and "toward" is listed in the keywords on the reference meaning "In such a way that the number of spaces is always decreased" or somesuch.

Most "ranged monsters" I believe, say move the Witch 2 spaces towards the closest investigator within range. It does not say, move the witch up to 2 spaces until you are within range of the closest investigator.


Alright then, play it how you want and make it more complex for yourself - it's your game
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dean L
United Kingdom
Coventry
West Midlands
flag msg tools
soakman wrote:

I don't see why any monster (short of having completely different rules for different monsters) would not move as close to the investigators as they could.


Except the app knows what monster it's telling you to move. So it can and does have different rules for the different monsters. If it wants you to move to just within range it says "move to within range". If it wants you to move as near as possible it says "move towards".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
soak man
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Deano2099 wrote:
soakman wrote:

I don't see why any monster (short of having completely different rules for different monsters) would not move as close to the investigators as they could.


Except the app knows what monster it's telling you to move. So it can and does have different rules for the different monsters. If it wants you to move to just within range it says "move to within range". If it wants you to move as near as possible it says "move towards".


I don't think I've seen "move to within range." I've seen move toward the closest investigator within range. That's what I mean.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.