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The Big Book of Madness» Forums » Rules

Subject: A question about reshuffling deck rss

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Renato Z
Italy
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Hi, I have a question about things can happen when your deck runs out.

"Remember: If you must draw and your deck is empty, add a Madness to your discard, then shuffle the discard to form a new deck."

This rule is pretty clear, but the point is: IF I DON'T HAVE TO DRAW?
Do I still have to reshuffle my deck?

For example:
I end my turn with 0 cards in my hand and 6 in my deck.
I must draw 6. My deck has now 0 cards.
I must immediately reshuffle it (and add a Madness) or I have to wait when I have to draw some cards?

I have read other topics here and it seems I have to reshuffle immediately even if I don't have to draw. But then why the rule says specifically "if you must draw cards..." ?
That's my doubt and the italian rulebook isn't clear about that...

Thank You so Much!
 
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Ryan W
United Kingdom
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I think you only need to reform your deck when you need to draw - so option 2 in your example
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Daily Grind
United States
Raleigh
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That is how I play as well. Only when you draw next. (But its possible this is my Dominion history creeping in...)
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Renato Z
Italy
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Ok, it means I can stay with 0 cards until I have to draw.
I have then another question:
What happen if I have to discard/destroy cards from the top of my deck (by the effect of Monster, Curse, Spell, Ability..) when there are 0 cards inside it?
It is not a drawing effect, so I can't reshuffle and then discard/destroy. In this case I do nothing, am I right?

Thank You again!
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Susan
United States
Mesa
Arizona
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Hmm I think in this case if you don't have a draw deck you need to shuffle and create one.
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Daily Grind
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Susan is right. You don't get a free pass just because you happen to be at zero cards You can think if 'Draw' meaning pull-from-the-top-of-the-deck where draw-and-discard, draw-to-hand and draw-and-destroy are the possible outcomes.
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Matthieu BONIN
France
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Exactly: you don't have to reshuffle your draw pile until you need to interact with it (draw, discard, destroy, look at... a card).
It's important because sometimes you don't want your discard pile to be immediately emptied when your draw pile is depleted.
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Philip Beaudet
United States
Manchester
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What about when character abilities make you draw when deck is empty? Do you still add madness to the deck? I played with the girl that draws a card when she defeats a curse in a 2 player game and she accumulated so many curse cards! I ask because it says in rulebook only under the recuperation phase that if you must draw and the deck is empty that you must add a madness card.
 
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Renato Z
Italy
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Mattintheweb wrote:
Exactly: you don't have to reshuffle your draw pile until you need to interact with it (draw, discard, destroy, look at... a card).
It's important because sometimes you don't want your discard pile to be immediately emptied when your draw pile is depleted.


Now it is pretty clear.
My last question is this: Do I have to add Madness every time I reshuffle (for draw, discard, destroy, look at)? Or only when I reshuffle because I need to draw (as the rule specifically says) ?

Thank You all
 
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Susan
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Lloyd Jay wrote:
Mattintheweb wrote:
Exactly: you don't have to reshuffle your draw pile until you need to interact with it (draw, discard, destroy, look at... a card).
It's important because sometimes you don't want your discard pile to be immediately emptied when your draw pile is depleted.


Now it is pretty clear.
My last question is this: Do I have to add Madness every time I reshuffle (for draw, discard, destroy, look at)? Or only when I reshuffle because I need to draw (as the rule specifically says) ?

Thank You all


Each and every time.
 
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Matthieu BONIN
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fweepa wrote:
What about when character abilities make you draw when deck is empty?
Special Abilities are optional, so you can choose not to draw a card if it's not to your advantage.

Lloyd Jay wrote:
My last question is this: Do I have to add Madness every time I reshuffle (for draw, discard, destroy, look at)? Or only when I reshuffle because I need to draw (as the rule specifically says) ?
As Susan said: each and every time you shuffle your discard pile to form a new draw pile, you add a Madness card to it, no matter the reason.
 
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Brett Thomason
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Sorry, you guys are wrong. It specifically says in the rules that the only time you add a madness card and reshuffle is when you have to DRAW a card. It states that you do not have to add a madness card card if you have to discard from an empty deck or a spell makes you shuffle.
 
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Brett Thomason
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Page 11 under shuffle
 
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Georg D.
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Weaselboy wrote:
Sorry, you guys are wrong. It specifically says in the rules that the only time you add a madness card and reshuffle is when you have to DRAW a card. It states that you do not have to add a madness card card if you have to discard from an empty deck or a spell makes you shuffle.

I don't care what the rules say if interpreted literally. If the publisher of the game tells me s.th. different I trust him that he knows his game. And he clearly answered the question.

Mattintheweb wrote:

Lloyd Jay wrote:
My last question is this: Do I have to add Madness every time I reshuffle (for draw, discard, destroy, look at)? Or only when I reshuffle because I need to draw (as the rule specifically says) ?
As Susan said: each and every time you shuffle your discard pile to form a new draw pile, you add a Madness card to it, no matter the reason.
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Brett Thomason
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Nelson
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Fluxx wrote:


I don't care what the rules say if interpreted literally. If the publisher of the game tells me s.th. different I trust him that he knows his game. And he clearly answered the question.



Who said anything about interpretation? It's right there on page 11

Shuffle

If you must shuffle your deck, hand or discard due to a Spell effect, you do not receive a Madness. You only receive a Madness card when you must draw cards, but have an empty deck.

Just because he works for the company doesn't mean he knows about the game, he's NOT the designer.
 
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Georg D.
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Weaselboy wrote:
Fluxx wrote:


I don't care what the rules say if interpreted literally. If the publisher of the game tells me s.th. different I trust him that he knows his game. And he clearly answered the question.



Who said anything about interpretation?

Basics of communication theory. Every form of communication is subject of interpretion by the recieving part.
Here we obviously have 2 major ways to interpret the rules :
- rules as written (what you are doing )
- rules as intended (We accept the possibility that the rules aren't optimally written and choose the most logical / consistent interpretation. )

If the publisher tells me to go the second route I will do it.

Quote:

Just because he works for the company doesn't mean he knows about the game, he's NOT the designer.

But he works for the publisher and is very active here answering several rules questions. So it is fair to assume that he was somehow involved in the production, has discussed several rules questions with the designer and has played several games with the designer. This answer is most likely as official as we will ever get.
You are right that the rules as written tell something else and you are free to play it this way but I don't see any sense in contradicting the publisher about the rules.
 
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Brett Thomason
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Nelson
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Fluxx wrote:


Basics of communication theory. Every form of communication is subject of interpretion by the recieving part.
Here we obviously have 2 major ways to interpret the rules :
- rules as written (what you are doing )
- rules as intended (We accept the possibility that the rules aren't optimally written and choose the most logical / consistent interpretation.


All I was doing was pointing out that the rules specifically say the opposite to what he said. By your logic if someone says 'no' to something, you're free to interpret that as 'yes'. That may sound silly but that example is just as diametrically opposed as the rules as written and his answer to them. If he wants to alter the rules to his game that's his right but something so different should require a revised edition.

 
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Georg D.
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I wouldn't call it ' diametrically opposed'. What the text you quoted says is that you don't have to add a madness card if a spell says you have to shuffle your deck. And that is basically true.
You only have to add madness if you form a new deck. Which happens if you have to interact with the top card of your deck (draw, discard, reveal) and there is no such card. So the oversight of the rulewriter was that he missed the face that there are other effects than 'draw' which can trigger that.
 
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Matthieu BONIN
France
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I think we made it clear in the FAQ.
Anyway, you're right it's not because I work for the publisher that I can't make mistakes, even though I always try to check every answer I make before posting it. But in this case, I'm positive about my answer, as I got it directly from the designer.
Sorry if the English version of the rulebook is confusing...
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