Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
15 Posts

Innovation» Forums » Rules

Subject: 4 player game of base innovation concern rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Ryan Morency
United States
Waterford
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
We played a 2v2 game of innovation. One of the players used agriculture to win the whole game. Yes, he was able to keep a current top card to claim achievements because the piles ran out too quickly from everyone else drawing. I was attacking the score pile of his partner, but I could not get the cards from his. All he had to do was draw from the current lowest age available, occasionally play a new top card, and score with agriculture. Neither I or my partner drew anything that would hurt his board or score pile.

I just want to make sure we weren't doing anything wrong. I assume this is just a quirk of the 4 player game with only the base set. I know this would not have happened in a 2 player game or probably even a 3 player game.

I want to get the expansion but I've been waiting on the deluxe version because we only have the 3rd edition base set. 4 player games are frustrating to me and I was hoping the expansions would make it better, but it feels like they will never be released in 3rd edition format.

We've played about 10 games of 4 player innovation with this group and we can only remember 1 game in which one of the teams didn't win by a landslide. It seems like a luck of the draw affair.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Reid
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, I find the base set too swingy with 4. With that many players I'd only play if there was at least one expansion involved. Though usually I'd shy away from playing with anything other than 3 anyway (my favorite count, though I know a lot of other folks swear by playing it with 2).
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next total solar eclipse holiday in 2017 in the USA.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
3 is good. You then have the option of letting one other player share with the dogmas and get a bonus card.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Why not work on keeping parity with the icons that enabled him to do Agriculture (leaves if I recall) so you could leech off his actions?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kirk Monsen
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I do not see you mention it, and it seems to be the number one cause of people thinking the game is easy, but you are only achieving in an age which matches (or is less than) one of the top cards on your board?
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It seems odd that you'd have this happening in 9 out of 10 of your team games. It will happen occasionally (simply due to luck of the draw), but most games should have quite a bit of back and forth.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Armand
United States
Los Angeles
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MunchWolf wrote:
I do not see you mention it, and it seems to be the number one cause of people thinking the game is easy, but you are only achieving in an age which matches (or is less than) one of the top cards on your board?


That was my first thought, too, but Ryan said 'current top card' so I think that's not it.

However, yes, there seem to be dozens of comments about 'broken agriculture' which turn out to be that. Just in case, to clarify:

You can't take the age 5 achievement unless you have an age 5 top card on the table in front of you.

I don't think I've played with 4 more than two or three times and they were both good. One was great, went to age 10 after the board getting nuked. Truly glorious...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasta Batman
United States
Tustin
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
jasonwocky wrote:
Yes, I find the base set too swingy with 4. With that many players I'd only play if there was at least one expansion involved.

Is there a particular expansion that improves 2v2 or regular 4p?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Reid
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pastabatman wrote:
jasonwocky wrote:
Yes, I find the base set too swingy with 4. With that many players I'd only play if there was at least one expansion involved.

Is there a particular expansion that improves 2v2 or regular 4p?


I don't play 2v2 but Echoes of the Past certainly helps with 4p imo. The increased card count slows the pace of the game down a bit, which I think is too breakneck in the base game with 4.

It's still not my favorite player count but I'll happily play the game like that.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Morency
United States
Waterford
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
doctoryes0 wrote:
MunchWolf wrote:
I do not see you mention it, and it seems to be the number one cause of people thinking the game is easy, but you are only achieving in an age which matches (or is less than) one of the top cards on your board?


That was my first thought, too, but Ryan said 'current top card' so I think that's not it.

However, yes, there seem to be dozens of comments about 'broken agriculture' which turn out to be that. Just in case, to clarify:

You can't take the age 5 achievement unless you have an age 5 top card on the table in front of you.

I don't think I've played with 4 more than two or three times and they were both good. One was great, went to age 10 after the board getting nuked. Truly glorious...


Yes, I should have been clearer. That's what I meant by current top card. I made sure he had a top card on his board that corresponded to the age of the achievement he was taking. He was able to do this simply by using a turn to draw a card and meld. Since you cycle through the draw piles faster in a 4p game the ages he drew from were high enough to support his strategy.

We did have one amazing game that ended in the 10th age. Everyone in the group loves the game which is why we play it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Morency
United States
Waterford
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
Why not work on keeping parity with the icons that enabled him to do Agriculture (leaves if I recall) so you could leech off his actions?


I thought about that, but I was not able to get more leaves. His partner was also stealing cards from my board at one point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
#YOLO
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Odinsfury wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Why not work on keeping parity with the icons that enabled him to do Agriculture (leaves if I recall) so you could leech off his actions?


I thought about that, but I was not able to get more leaves. His partner was also stealing cards from my board at one point.
Ok but that situation won't happen every time, unless you let it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Armand
United States
Los Angeles
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
Odinsfury wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Why not work on keeping parity with the icons that enabled him to do Agriculture (leaves if I recall) so you could leech off his actions?


I thought about that, but I was not able to get more leaves. His partner was also stealing cards from my board at one point.
Ok but that situation won't happen every time, unless you let it.


It does happen though. Some games do end in a blowout. I think the balancing factor is that Innovation allows for some of the most epic comebacks of any game I've played. Now matter how far behind I get I always hold out hope that things are about to go my way.

And that's particularly true when a player makes a big run with a card like Agriculture. If he stalls before the finish line he will be behind on all suits and have very little to work with.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek H
South Africa
Pretoria
Gauteng
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
doctoryes0 wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Odinsfury wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Why not work on keeping parity with the icons that enabled him to do Agriculture (leaves if I recall) so you could leech off his actions?


I thought about that, but I was not able to get more leaves. His partner was also stealing cards from my board at one point.
Ok but that situation won't happen every time, unless you let it.


It does happen though. Some games do end in a blowout. I think the balancing factor is that Innovation allows for some of the most epic comebacks of any game I've played. Now matter how far behind I get I always hold out hope that things are about to go my way.

This.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robb Effinger
United States
Bothell
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Odinsfury wrote:

I want to get the expansion but I've been waiting on the deluxe version because we only have the 3rd edition base set. 4 player games are frustrating to me and I was hoping the expansions would make it better, but it feels like they will never be released in 3rd edition format.


So 3rd edition base was only released at the start of this year, iirc. The latest kickstarter update on the 3rd edition deluxe/all expansions is that they hope to get it printed/delivered in the Fall.

As to 4-players - ya, the reason I don't enjoy 4-player base is because the piles empty too quickly, and so getting and holding a tech lead isn't an option - too many cards get drawn between your turns. Which makes the game a lot more about scoring - and agriculture is a slow, but steady, scoring mechanism (Really, though, I'm surprised the complaint isn't about Pottery instead - that card is going to be a lot quicker than agriculture, since the piles are basically guaranteed to be empty).

Agriculture isn't a very good card for getting early achievements - it's pretty slow to achieve the 1 or 2 with it, compared to, say, clothing, or metalworking. So maybe you can make it less appealing to get started on a score pile by finding some other way of grabbing early achievements. But ya, maybe it's better to hold off playing until the expansions release, or play with only 2 until the other two show up (or two 2-player games ... I wonder if a doubles/bughouse innovation game would work - play two side-by-side games of innovation - on your turn you can dogma your partner's cards as if they were your own? Or both players share a score pile, which could lead to cards swapping between games? )

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.