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Liar's Dice» Forums » General

Subject: I don't understand the meta rss

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Adrian B
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Dartmouth
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Ok, so I hope I'm using the term "meta" in the right way. In this case Im referring to the "game within the game", which certainly may require further clarification... Ive introduced this game to our gaming group (the Perudo rules version) and we were having fun with it. We understood the rules, and by the time we played the 3rd or fourth time someone suggests "why not go right to sixes on the opening bid?" I couldn't grok his question, so everytime he opened the bidding, he'd just just bid the statistical probability i.e. 18 dice on the table, opening bid: 6x6's. We could all see his point: without a complete round of "reading" people, this opening bid reduces the game to simple odds percentage. With 18 dice, and with each die offer a 2/6 chance of being a 6 or a one (wild), the sum over 18 dice is 36/6... Or statistically, very likely to be 6 dice with either a 1 or a six.

This puts the next player in a boring position because the opening bid is plausible, REGARDLESS of the number of sixes or ones he himself is looking at under his own cup, you are bidding on the TOTAL number under all all cups. If he calls "dudo" chances are he'll be wrong. If he raises to 7xsixes, invariably the next player will call dudo and statistically be right but arbitrarilay be right or wrong.

Now, from our understanding of the rules, you can't reduce a bid, so once the values are at sixes... You cant reduce it to any other lower value.

We all teased him for "breaking" the game, but seriously agreed that many people enjoy the game around the world so although we seem to understand the rules we probably don't understand the "meta" of this game and here I am describing it in this post, looking for enlightenement.

So, for example, how do you thwart a player who opens with the statistical probability of sixes? If we can't figure out this meta this won't see the table again for us. Thanks!
 
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The Count
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Quote:
Now, from our understanding of the rules, you can't reduce a bid, so once the values are at sixes... You cant reduce it to any other lower value.


I think you have it a little wrong.

If you bid 5 "6's", I can bid 6 "2's, or "3"'s, etc.
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J. Riddell
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Webster
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droberts441 wrote:
Quote:
Now, from our understanding of the rules, you can't reduce a bid, so once the values are at sixes... You cant reduce it to any other lower value.


I think you have it a little wrong.

If you bid 5 "6's", I can bid 6 "2's, or "3"'s, etc.
That is correct you can go to a new number when you up the bid by number of dice. Also, don't forget that as a player in the game the statistical probability changes once you know how many of a certain number you have. If the player bids 6 sixes and I have three or more of them then I will certainly up the bid because I am betting on the number of remaining sixes and my dice throw off the probability.

I'd also recommend you play with showing your dice, saving off one or more dice, then re-rolling if you are not already playing with that rule. This adds more variety and should help your situation.

I use meta-gaming to mean gaming outside of the rules of the game (but you could also be right). This can show up in king making a spouse, playing as a team in an individual game, taking abnormal revenge on a player who beat you last game, or trying to get sympathy so a player won't make an optimal move. Something like that.
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Adrian B
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Dartmouth
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droberts441 wrote:
Quote:
Now, from our understanding of the rules, you can't reduce a bid, so once the values are at sixes... You cant reduce it to any other lower value.


I think you have it a little wrong.

If you bid 5 "6's", I can bid 6 "2's, or "3"'s, etc.


Here is a quote from www.perudo.com

The first player announces a number, and then the next player has the choice of doubting it, by saying Dudo or raising the bid, either by the number of dice or by the value of the dice. (or by doing both) For example, if player 1 bid three twos, then player two could bid three threes, four twos, four fours, or even ten sixes.

...it seems clear to me? Either by raising the number, the value, or both. It doesnt at all say you can LOWER a number or a value? E.g. If the bid is 3xthrees, you could raise the number (4xthrees), or the value (3xfours), or both (4x 4s).

It doesnt say you can raise the number and lower the value (4x ones) or lower the number and raise the value (1x6's).

If it were as you describe, the rule would simply be, "...or you can raise the bid by increasing the number of dice of any given value"

Could I get more confirmation from other sources? Is this in fact how the rule is meant to be applied? If so it seems like a simple rule to be written so poorly?
 
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Malte Hue
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Official rules are either up the die's value, or raise the number of dice with chosing any value (same, lower or higher).
This should solve your problem.
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The Count
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poguelife wrote:
droberts441 wrote:
Quote:
Now, from our understanding of the rules, you can't reduce a bid, so once the values are at sixes... You cant reduce it to any other lower value.


I think you have it a little wrong.

If you bid 5 "6's", I can bid 6 "2's, or "3"'s, etc.


Here is a quote from www.perudo.com

The first player announces a number, and then the next player has the choice of doubting it, by saying Dudo or raising the bid, either by the number of dice or by the value of the dice. (or by doing both) For example, if player 1 bid three twos, then player two could bid three threes, four twos, four fours, or even ten sixes.

...it seems clear to me? Either by raising the number, the value, or both. It doesnt at all say you can LOWER a number or a value? E.g. If the bid is 3xthrees, you could raise the number (4xthrees), or the value (3xfours), or both (4x 4s).

It doesnt say you can raise the number and lower the value (4x ones) or lower the number and raise the value (1x6's).

If it were as you describe, the rule would simply be, "...or you can raise the bid by increasing the number of dice of any given value"

Could I get more confirmation from other sources? Is this in fact how the rule is meant to be applied? If so it seems like a simple rule to be written so poorly?


Here is what you are missing:

Quote:
either by the number of dice


From the "could bid "4 twos"" in your own example is what you are missing.

Here are the Rules from Perudo (not Perudo.com):

Quote:
Increasing the Bid

To increase the bid, Player 2 may either:

1) increase the quantity, or
2) increase the number, or
3) increase the quantity and the number.

To increase the quantity, a player bids a higher quantity of the same number that the previous player bid.

For example, after Player 1 bids "4 fives," Player 2 may call 5 or more of any number (increasing the quantity). Player 2 might call "5 fives," "6 fours." or "7 twos."

Or, Player 2 may increase the number, by bidding a number higher than Player 1 bid.



The example seems pretty clear.

OR

From Richard Borg's "Liar's Dice," which is the same rules as his "Bluff" which won the SDJ:

Quote:
Raising the Bid.

You can raise the bid in any one of the following three ways:
* Either keep the red die on the same bidding space, and show a higher number on top;
* Or, move the red die clockwise to any higher Number Bid space, and show any number on top;
* Or, move the red die clockwise to any Wild Star Bid Space, and show the Wild Star on top.


If you have never played "Bluff," one of the reasons why I think it won the SDJ, is that it included a board to make it easier to figure out how to bid, and a die to use for your bid.

I included a photo from the BGG database:



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Adrian B
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Dartmouth
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Thanks everyone, this makes more sense. It would seem to me that perudo.com tried to summarize the rules by shooting from the hip rather carelessly. Without the examples you give from the perudo rules (NOT perudo.com), and the bluff rules, one can't assume from the open source internet that you can call ANY value if you raise the quantity (even to a lower value).

These rules are simple in concept but damn if our language isn't awkward in trying to describe it! Incidentally its this limitation in our laguage that kept me with closed mindedness years ago when I had my first opportunity to learn the game. You've got to admit... 6 sixes (hunh?), value and by that i mean die face (which is a number), number and by that I mean quantity, and by quantity I don't mean value of the die faces ...??? It enough to make you insane.

I should be playing Chuthulu liars dice
 
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Jae
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Bryan
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also note, you could have bid four 1's as a raise to six 6's.

There is also a variant rule where you can "call" that the last player made a correct guess. I personally use this in my own games and it helps immensely.
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Paul S
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Bagherra wrote:
also note, you could have bid four 1's as a raise to six 6's.

There is also a variant rule where you can "call" that the last player made a correct guess. I personally use this in my own games and it helps immensely.


We play it so that anyone except the current player can call the last bet as accurate. They get a die back if they're right.
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