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Carcassonne: The River» Forums » Rules

Subject: Yet another question about u-turns rss

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Ken Shin
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Why don't HiG just simply say, "NO U-TURNS" and make that the official ruling? On Brettspielwelt.de the online rule is that no u-turns of any kind are allowed.

The best way to view this is to think of the river as starting from the bank and flowing down. It can make turns, but it can't go back up. In real life that's impossible.

So just imagine that the terrain is sloping down as the river is placed. If you imagine that then, there is no way a u-turn would work.

So to make a long story short: Why don't we just say, "No U-turn, period!"
 
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Branko K.
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Yes, but a U-turn is not just about "going back up".

Consider a river which flowes like many number "5"s joined at the bottom. It makes U-turns all over the place yet it never goes back up.

The U-turns are frowned upon because they can make an unfinishable river and/or create a tile configuration difficult to fill up. However, not using U-turns at all makes a sprawling river which more often or not creates an unwanted uber-farm ripe for picking.

Come to think of it, I don't really like The river that much at all.
 
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Mik Svellov
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Real rivers can certainly make U-turns:
http://members.optusnet.com.au/aquatichabitats/sepik_river.j...

But one thing is real life, another is rules in a game.
U-turns are not allowed in Carcassone, not in the board game, not in the PC game and not in the online game.
 
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brian
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Actually, I beleive HiG does now allow U-Turns in their last FAQ (but this may have changed with the Big Box).

As Baba pointed out, the main reason for no U-Turns are the "tight turns" where it presents you with a possibility of matching the river but also the features of a previously played river piece. This is the type of turn that is and should remain banned. Some allow it and houserule that if you can't play a river tile, discard it and draw another (like you would with e regulr tile during the game); however, it may still effect the lake and creat an unfinished river. Some still find that agreeable though I don't like the visual look of an unfinished river.

But if you get at least 1 straight river tile in between the two bends in the river, you now have space and should never run into pieces you can't play. It might make it extremly hard finding a regular piece to fit during the game, but the river remains intact. This is the type of "broad" U-Turn that I think HiG allows. In my games, though I try to discourage it (because I like the long spread out river) but usually allow it.

The main problem with allowing this though would be if you play with the River 2 which has a branch. If you start allowing the broad U-Turns and you have a couple so that now the river in not just a U-Turn but a curly-Q and the Branch comes up, you may force yourself back into the river and not only make it difficult to match again - but may just run out of real estate.

So the official word is no U-Turn, but by U-Turn, they mean tight ones. You can modify it as you see fit. And during a game, you can usually tell when a broad U-Turn should be fine and can be allowed and when it might cause problems and should be discouraqed.
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Dumont Claude
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BrianMola wrote:
Actually, I beleive HiG does now allow U-Turns in their last FAQ (but this may have changed with the Big Box).

As Baba pointed out, the main reason for no U-Turns are the "tight turns" where it presents you with a possibility of matching the river but also the features of a previously played river piece. This is the type of turn that is and should remain banned. Some allow it and houserule that if you can't play a river tile, discard it and draw another (like you would with e regulr tile during the game); however, it may still effect the lake and creat an unfinished river. Some still find that agreeable though I don't like the visual look of an unfinished river.

But if you get at least 1 straight river tile in between the two bends in the river, you now have space and should never run into pieces you can't play. It might make it extremly hard finding a regular piece to fit during the game, but the river remains intact. This is the type of "broad" U-Turn that I think HiG allows. In my games, though I try to discourage it (because I like the long spread out river) but usually allow it.
.


I completely agree with you
 
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A L D A R O N
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The HiG FAQ require some interpretation. What I came up with for my rules summary was this:

Quote:
A river tile may only be placed adjacent to another river tile if it extends the river from that tile (only). A tile may not be placed if it could prevent any subsequently drawn river tiles from meeting this requirement.
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Ken Shin
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Aldaron wrote:
The HiG FAQ require some interpretation. What I came up with for my rules summary was this:

Quote:
A river tile may only be placed adjacent to another river tile if it extends the river from that tile (only). A tile may not be placed if it could prevent any subsequently drawn river tiles from meeting this requirement.


Is this your own rule or something HiG states in your correspondence with them?

Because getting trapped is the only reason someone needs for the rules to finally say, "no u-turns" under any condition, immediate or gradual.
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Mik Svellov
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dvader123 wrote:
Is this your own rule or something HiG states in your correspondence with them?

Because getting trapped is the only reason someone needs for the rules to finally say, "no u-turns" under any condition, immediate or gradual.


It appears that two different spokesmen at HiG has stated that only strict 'U-turns' are forbidden. Unfortunately is the identity of said spokesmen not revealed, so it impossible to say how reliable they are.

So I will accept the strict U-turn ruling as official - but will try to get a confirmation from one of the designers or the developer.

And officially correct or not will I continue to play with the rule that every tile must be played so that it minimises the risk of the river blocking itself.
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Ken Shin
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My view on this is to simply imagine that the river is gradually going down a hill. If you keep that in mind that you should know which turns (immediate or not immediate) are or aren't allowed.

I know that's not the official ruling, but doesn't it make things simpler? I believe this is how they play it on BSW.
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dvader123 wrote:
Is this your own rule or something HiG states in your correspondence with them?

Based on HiG's replies to Matt Harper's questions.
 
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brian
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dvader123 wrote:
My view on this is to simply imagine that the river is gradually going down a hill. If you keep that in mind that you should know which turns (immediate or not immediate) are or aren't allowed.

I know that's not the official ruling, but doesn't it make things simpler? I believe this is how they play it on BSW.

You can play it however you want! (and I don't mean that sarcastically) Avoiding all U-turns, tight or wide, will keep you out of trouble. So if you would rather keep this as an absolute in your games (as Mik does also), then by all means go for it!
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Matthew Harper
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Here's a couple of links on the issue from my FAQ site.

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/mjharper/E9B3489B_4D3E_4C45... This is a discussion with Pavils Jurjans, who is publisher of the game in the Baltic states. He wrote to HiG to check, and received an answer which seemed to suggest that no U-turns were possible. So I wrote back to HiG and received this answer: http://web.mac.com/mjharper/iWeb/carc/Home/61C76EB7-A01E-43B... - Yes, it really is only immediate U-turns which are expressly forbidden.

What's interesting about this exchange is that the issue was actually raised in connection with the publication of Carcassonne, rather than merely us guys on BGG wanting to know the answer again. HiG actually had the opportunity to include the 'absolutely no U-turns' idea in an official set of rules. They chose not to, and, given the authority of Pavils Jurjans, I think that's about as definitive a ruling as you can get.

The logic behind it? No idea - except that banning all U-turns would seem unnatural, especially if you have both The River and The River II, because of the sheer length of the river.

Now, RGG have complicated the matter somewhat (but then they're a law unto themselves) by writing in The Big Box: "Do not place a river tile so that the river makes a 'U' turn". I'm assuming that this sentence can still be qualified by the HiG ruling - if anyone's in touch with Jay Tummelson, they could write to check - but even if the RGG do agree that all U-turns are banned, on current information, HiG definitely do not. (I could still write and check with HiG, mentioning the RGG sentence above - but it would make more sense if we knew categorically whether RGG do believe all U-turns are banned.)
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Rick
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After playing a game of Carcassonne with the River, my wife and I ran into a problem.

We played with the interpretation that appears to be the "official" answer that only immediate U-Turns are prohibited. The problem arose when my wife started to play a river tile that would turn the river back towards itself. She decided to change her move so that we could finish the river, but if she had left her legal play, does the river just run into nothing? It would appear so. This was unsatisfying so we now play with no U-turns of any sort.

Below are a couple of examples of how a river can become uncompleted, others exist. You could potentially your first meeple placed never be able to complete his structure.
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Mik Svellov
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RiffRaff14 wrote:
Below are a couple of examples of how a river can become uncompleted

Rivers in my games are often uncompleted as I play my own variant: I use a River Source as the Starting tile and have the remaining river tiles in a bag (minus the second source tile).

Players keep drawing from the bag until the river has been completely terminated by one or more lakes (depending upon the number of branches drawn).

From then on the River bag is returned to the box and play continues with standard bag.

This makes every river completely different.
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Joseph
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I thought it was down and away from the source?

I use that simple rule and all is fine.
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