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Subject: Alliance + betrayal rss

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Salman Qaisar
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I really like these mechanisms in games, they add tension, emotion and drama.

However they can also lead to ganging up, or the opposite - isolation.

So they can be fun AND very unfun.

Some types of Alliances/betrayals games I know about:
A. Open-ended (anything can be negotiated) = worst type imo:
- negotiations taking long time
- lots of arguments between players + unclear terms (which later in game lead to further arguments + time-wasting!)

B. I like alliances in Cosmic encounter:
Pros:
- less personal + often make sense situationally (no alliance for someone to have joint win with me!) so less offense to those not offered.
- clearly defined benefits (although universal, not faction specific)
Cons (imo obviously):
- I agree with another BGGer who doesn't like their mandatory brevity (unless re-offered next turn)

C. Rex (ok Dune, before anyone slates me!) has interesting alliance system:
Pros:
- defined benefits, with an exchange of certain LIMITED FACTION-SPECIFIC powers
- uncertain times for forming alliances (prevents the same factions always partnering from the start, and allows a more situational decision)
Cons:
- Rigid alliances, can only be broken at certain times (I'm not a fan of this, confines players too much)

D. Star trek Ascendancy, the new game, seems to have a good balance of all the above :
- players can form alliances WHEN their ships meet (thematic + makes defined timing)
- allies exchange cards with defined benefits (like Rex/dune), can move through each others space
- alliances can be broken at any time (thus stranding ships of ex-allies in now-hostile territory! Easy pickings! devil )

Please feel free to mention other games with good AND bad alliance/betrayal mechanics.

I read a really good article on how Blood rage overcame the typical problems in "Dudes On A map" (DOAM) games:
https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/56761/genius-blood-rage-i...


I really really hope that Rising Sun:
A. Actively prevents those DOAM problems from creeping back in (no good solving them for Blood Rage, and not for other games! Although if the solutions are different, that's great too)

B.Similarly gives an amazing alliance/betrayal system that solves theit usual problems

C. Hopefully in under 3-4 hours!

Wishing Eric + the gang all the best, and God-speed!
Sal
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Keith Pishnery
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Is this post a response to your other post from a couple hours before? It seems like the same discussion.
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Salman Qaisar
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kpishnery wrote:
Is this post a response to your other post from a couple hours before? It seems like the same discussion.

No, that post was to try to understand what "ancestry from the game Diplomacy" means for RS, if anything other than alliance/betrayal.

Also if someone could explain any other links between BR and Risk.

That led me to thinking bit deeper about alliance/betrayal, and i felt that was worth discussing deeper in a separate post.
Sorry for confusion!
Sal
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Becq Starforged
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Struggle of Empires has another variation of the "forming alliances" mechanism. In SoE, there's a bidding stage each "age", where players are basically bidding to establish both turn order and also who is on which side during that age. (Was intended to reflect the somewhat arbitrary alliance that shifted from one war to the next, I think.) You don't necessary have to participate fully in your alliance attacking the other alliance, but you can't attack you allies, so there's actually a great deal of strategy involved in that bid (ie, if a particular player is poised to hurt you, just bid to make him your ally!)

Not sure this really applies to discussions of Rising Sun (nor do I really know what form the politics in Rising Sun will take), but since you were talking about types of alliance mechanisms, I thought I'd throw that in.
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Salman Qaisar
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Becq wrote:
Struggle of Empires has another variation of the "forming alliances" mechanism. In SoE, there's a bidding stage each "age", where players are basically bidding to establish both turn order and also who is on which side during that age. (Was intended to reflect the somewhat arbitrary alliance that shifted from one war to the next, I think.) You don't necessary have to participate fully in your alliance attacking the other alliance, but you can't attack you allies, so there's actually a great deal of strategy involved in that bid (ie, if a particular player is poised to hurt you, just bid to make him your ally!)


Now that sounds really interesting - strategic, nonpermanent, defined benefits, and sounds fun!

Not sure how much scope for change is left in RS at this point, but no harm in throwing ideas around for Eric to consider.

(hope he doesn't mind me calling him by first name, I'm still fairly new to BGG, but I had the impression that gamers are generally friends, either now or potentially in future meeple )
Sal
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Rahn
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Becq wrote:
Struggle of Empires has another variation of the "forming alliances" mechanism. In SoE, there's a bidding stage each "age", where players are basically bidding to establish both turn order and also who is on which side during that age. (Was intended to reflect the somewhat arbitrary alliance that shifted from one war to the next, I think.) You don't necessary have to participate fully in your alliance attacking the other alliance, but you can't attack you allies, so there's actually a great deal of strategy involved in that bid (ie, if a particular player is poised to hurt you, just bid to make him your ally!)

Not sure this really applies to discussions of Rising Sun (nor do I really know what form the politics in Rising Sun will take), but since you were talking about types of alliance mechanisms, I thought I'd throw that in.


I love games that support emergent alliances through gameplay mechanics instead of (often arbitrary) player decisions/whims. Struggle of Empires is a great example. As are many games with shares where players with similar portfolios have aligned intersts until their portfolios diverge (see Imperial, Chicago Express, and even Reef Encounter)

Hopefully this game falls into one of these camps but I don't expect it to.
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Nick
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Cool mechanic, kind of works if the player in the 'lead' has to assign allegiance to a 'side' first, say the dark side or the light side, then subsequent players decide if they want to be on that side too or against them. If the selection choice goes from the player in the lead to the last player (points wise - if points are tracked) this can leave the player with the least points in a strong position where he can side with the strongest looking side to help him catch up. I know its vague but thought it sounded cool in my head.
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I like Eclipse's expansion alliance method. I think it's close to option D, but breaking alliance gives -2 Victory Points.
 
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