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Subject: would it be worth selling pnp games? rss

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maf man
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In the past few weeks I've seen a handful of threads that make me think all that stands in the way of some pnp games is building them. So I was thinking, would it be worth my time (and the buyers $) making cheap/moderately low builds and selling them through the bgg market? Is that even an ok thing to do? Would more than one person buy a low quality game? Would this be detrimental to the designer trying to get real finding or would it help? and when I ask would it be worth it, I don't mean to me, I mean would it help pnp games break the market, would everyone benefit from this?

Of course I would have to get the ok by the owner of the game and each build would very greatly in cost due to the game and due to what level of quality is wanted/needed. As the game gets improved quality and the game itself gets bigger it seems to me it would get less and less appealing, but is this worth trying?

price= (cost of materials) + (shipping) + (decided by game's owner) + (optional donation to me)

My initial thoughts is that if it was a nano game (9 or 18 cards) I could make and ship the game for $2.
That sounds awesome to me....so what am I not thinking of?
 
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Charles Boyung
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mafman6 wrote:
In the past few weeks I've seen a handful of threads that make me think all that stands in the way of some pnp games is building them. So I was thinking, would it be worth my time (and the buyers $) making cheap/moderately low builds and selling them through the bgg market? Is that even an ok thing to do? Would more than one person buy a low quality game? Would this be detrimental to the designer trying to get real finding or would it help? and when I ask would it be worth it, I don't mean to me, I mean would it help pnp games break the market, would everyone benefit from this?

Of course I would have to get the ok by the owner of the game and each build would very greatly in cost due to the game and due to what level of quality is wanted/needed. As the game gets improved quality and the game itself gets bigger it seems to me it would get less and less appealing, but is this worth trying?

price= (cost of materials) + (shipping) + (decided by game's owner) + (optional donation to me)

My initial thoughts is that if it was a nano game (9 or 18 cards) I could make and ship the game for $2.
That sounds awesome to me....so what am I not thinking of?


There are already places that do this - like Print & Play Productions.
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mafman6 wrote:
In the past few weeks I've seen a handful of threads that make me think all that stands in the way of some pnp games is building them. So I was thinking, would it be worth my time (and the buyers $) making cheap/moderately low builds and selling them through the bgg market? Is that even an ok thing to do? Would more than one person buy a low quality game? Would this be detrimental to the designer trying to get real finding or would it help? and when I ask would it be worth it, I don't mean to me, I mean would it help pnp games break the market, would everyone benefit from this?

Of course I would have to get the ok by the owner of the game and each build would very greatly in cost due to the game and due to what level of quality is wanted/needed. As the game gets improved quality and the game itself gets bigger it seems to me it would get less and less appealing, but is this worth trying?

price= (cost of materials) + (shipping) + (decided by game's owner) + (optional donation to me)

My initial thoughts is that if it was a nano game (9 or 18 cards) I could make and ship the game for $2.
That sounds awesome to me....so what am I not thinking of?


This service has been around for a long time, be it by the publisher's themselves that do one-offs for their OoP designs or via companies like PnP productions who take their own designs or the work or fan redesigns (with permission) and build copies. I have seen several of PnP Prod's products and they were very nicely done.

My guess is that if you were to venture down this road, you would need extensive experience (ie - good quality product) in order for a person to pay you to do the work that they could do themselves. Furthermore, I think there is a decent amount of investment in materials and tools to do this efficiently and properly.

My company helps designers take their OoP titles and go directly to PnP, but never do the work in creating the printed product - just the files... just a tremendous amount of time, requires great skills, and just wouldn't be worth the effort as an industry. Not saying that you can't make some money off of it, but probably not the smartest use of one's time for remuneration.

 
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Patrick Stangier
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So something similar to what Andrew Tullsen is doing with Print & Play Productions?

The only person who can judge if it would be worth you time is you.

Just make sure to get the designers approval and keep in mind that some things that are ok when you do them for yourself might not be once money exchanges hands.

Personally I think there are a lot of people who do not have the time and/or skill for print and play builds but are willing to pay money for games.
So a service like this would mean more games getting played (which is what games are all about), which I view as a good thing.
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mafman6 wrote:
In the past few weeks I've seen a handful of threads that make me think all that stands in the way of some pnp games is building them. So I was thinking, would it be worth my time (and the buyers $) making cheap/moderately low builds and selling them through the bgg market? Is that even an ok thing to do? Would more than one person buy a low quality game? Would this be detrimental to the designer trying to get real finding or would it help? and when I ask would it be worth it, I don't mean to me, I mean would it help pnp games break the market, would everyone benefit from this?

Of course I would have to get the ok by the owner of the game and each build would very greatly in cost due to the game and due to what level of quality is wanted/needed. As the game gets improved quality and the game itself gets bigger it seems to me it would get less and less appealing, but is this worth trying?

price= (cost of materials) + (shipping) + (decided by game's owner) + (optional donation to me)

My initial thoughts is that if it was a nano game (9 or 18 cards) I could make and ship the game for $2.
That sounds awesome to me....so what am I not thinking of?


Also, why would a potential designer choose you when they could get the same service from PoD services like drivethrucards, etc., where they provide guaranteed quality?

That isn't to say that you can't pump out good quality by hand, but they do it via printers onto actual cards with nice rounded corners, etc.


 
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Charles Boyung
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darthhugo wrote:
mafman6 wrote:
In the past few weeks I've seen a handful of threads that make me think all that stands in the way of some pnp games is building them. So I was thinking, would it be worth my time (and the buyers $) making cheap/moderately low builds and selling them through the bgg market? Is that even an ok thing to do? Would more than one person buy a low quality game? Would this be detrimental to the designer trying to get real finding or would it help? and when I ask would it be worth it, I don't mean to me, I mean would it help pnp games break the market, would everyone benefit from this?

Of course I would have to get the ok by the owner of the game and each build would very greatly in cost due to the game and due to what level of quality is wanted/needed. As the game gets improved quality and the game itself gets bigger it seems to me it would get less and less appealing, but is this worth trying?

price= (cost of materials) + (shipping) + (decided by game's owner) + (optional donation to me)

My initial thoughts is that if it was a nano game (9 or 18 cards) I could make and ship the game for $2.
That sounds awesome to me....so what am I not thinking of?


This service has been around for a long time, be it by the publisher's themselves that do one-offs for their OoP designs or via companies like PnP productions who take their own designs or the work or fan redesigns (with permission) and build copies. I have seen several of PnP Prod's products and they were very nicely done.

My guess is that if you were to venture down this road, you would need extensive experience (ie - good quality product) in order for a person to pay you to do the work that they could do themselves. Furthermore, I think there is a decent amount of investment in materials and tools to do this efficiently and properly.

My company helps designers take their OoP titles and go directly to PnP, but never do the work in creating the printed product - just the files... just a tremendous amount of time, requires great skills, and just wouldn't be worth the effort as an industry. Not saying that you can't make some money off of it, but probably not the smartest use of one's time for remuneration.



Just curious - what's your company? And what are some of the titles you've done with this? Inrested in checking that sort of thing out.
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maf man
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darthhugo wrote:
Also, why would a potential designer choose you when they could get the same service from PoD services ...

yes my quality would be low. well I don't imagine a designer coming to me, I'm going to them and asking them if they would be open to this idea. This is me trying to see if more options are better.
I find that there are plenty of pnp games that don't have an easy buy option. The games selected would just be my effort bringing more games to the world, ideally making it an easy choice for the buyer to get another game. Printandplay seemed to be more of a competitor to standard published games. So far I haven't seen many tiny games out there to buy and I just assumed they're not there, haven't checked drivethroughcards enough to be cretin. I just guessed the print on demand places just wouldn't see enough profit in the small builds.
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mafman6 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
Also, why would a potential designer choose you when they could get the same service from PoD services ...

yes my quality would be low. well I don't imagine a designer coming to me, I'm going to them and asking them if they would be open to this idea. This is me trying to see if more options are better.
I find that there are plenty of pnp games that don't have an easy buy option. The games selected would just be my effort bringing more games to the world, ideally making it an easy choice for the buyer to get another game. Printandplay seemed to be more of a competitor to standard published games. So far I haven't seen many tiny games out there to buy and I just assumed they're not there, haven't checked drivethroughcards enough to be cretin. I just guessed the print on demand places just wouldn't see enough profit in the small builds.


Sure, I see your point.

I guess from my perspective, if someone is doing PnP, they are probably trying to save money, which if extrapolated would lead to the question: Why would they pay someone else to do a PnP build, when it is cheaper and easy (microgame) to do themselves. It is the large scale PnP's that create a market, because they are so much a Pain in the Ass to pull off, it would be best just to pay someone else to do it. Thus, the reason that there are few buy options for easy PnP builds, is because there is no sustainable market for them.

Like everything... you won't know until you try, so go get 'em.

 
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TTDG
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Some people don't always have the time, color printer, cardstock, lamination, etc to do the PNPs they might desire. Having said that, shipping costs add $ to any deal, and often make them non-deals.

Could you make enough money to make it worth your time? Probably not. Could you make a business out of it? Probably not. Could you do a small quantity of PNPs and sell them below what your time is worth? Maybe.

There is a legal/moral issue about intentionally intending to sell someone else's 'free for private use' works. OTOH, there is a 'used' market even for PNP games.

You'd certainly need to show pictures of your PNP quality, which if it is very low will not get you buyers. I'd think you'd need to show at least medium level quality.
 
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Greg Lorrimer
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Breaking Away, the cycling race game, is a well regarded game where quite a lot of the production is poor quality inkjet. It's not even pnp.

I wouldn't worry about low quality so long as you're upfront about it. Even a colour laser would be a big leg up for a lot of us.
 
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James Wahl
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mafman6 wrote:
In the past few weeks I've seen a handful of threads that make me think all that stands in the way of some pnp games is building them. So I was thinking, would it be worth my time (and the buyers $) making cheap/moderately low builds and selling them through the bgg market? Is that even an ok thing to do? Would more than one person buy a low quality game? Would this be detrimental to the designer trying to get real finding or would it help? and when I ask would it be worth it, I don't mean to me, I mean would it help pnp games break the market, would everyone benefit from this?

Of course I would have to get the ok by the owner of the game and each build would very greatly in cost due to the game and due to what level of quality is wanted/needed. As the game gets improved quality and the game itself gets bigger it seems to me it would get less and less appealing, but is this worth trying?

price= (cost of materials) + (shipping) + (decided by game's owner) + (optional donation to me)

My initial thoughts is that if it was a nano game (9 or 18 cards) I could make and ship the game for $2.
That sounds awesome to me....so what am I not thinking of?


Check the licensing. Most are going to not have clear licensing (which means that you can't market them without the risk of the designer asking for every dollar that you made), homebrewed licensing that specifies that the game is only available for non-commercial purposes, or a Creative Commons non-commercial/attribution-required/no-derivatives license (I can't remember what it's called) that effectively means the same thing as most homebrews.

But if you get the permission of the designer, anything goes. If it's worth your time and the designer doesn't care there's no reason not to do it. Offer it to the also-rans in design contests. Even better, offer it to the WIPs, so they can get the stuff playtested as they work on it. There's nobody who can say for sure whether it will be good or bad for a game. I lean towards very good in the case of some microgame - no company is going to care that there are 50 copies of some tiny game floating around, and it just makes it more likely to get played by somebody who might publish it.

Lastly, when it comes to 9-18 card games, doing an order with printerstudio with multiple decks + multiple copies of the games per deck will probably be more cost effective and higher quality than making the cards yourself. You could just add rules/tokens/(boxes or baggies) to them and mail them on.

When it comes to more elaborate games, it would be tough to get the prices lower than Andrew, and his quality is high due to experience and equipment.
 
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