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Band of Brothers: Screaming Eagles» Forums » Rules

Subject: Op fire vs Final Op fire rss

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Mike Gasch
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Hey there,

I have a couple (hopefully) quick question about these.

When Op Firing, if adjacent, do they get +1 added to the Proficient FP for being adjacent in addition to +3 for being in the adjacent Situation?

So a unit being Op Fired is in the open and adjacent to the firing unit, do the modifiers total +8? (+1 for the Op Fire rule for being adjacent(up to the full FP), +4 for moving in the open, and +3 being adjacent)
While that same unit with Final Op Fired is a +6? (Same as above, -2 FOF)

As far as the strength of the fire against a moving unit, is the only difference -2FP for the Final Op type? And being able to do it multiple times if the moving unit is adjacent after another move. Each time requiring a MC to Op fire?

Not sure why this is throwing me off but I think that's correct.

If all that is so, then moving in the open adjacent to a unit reasonably capable of Op firing is about the stupidest thing you can possibly do, got it...

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Sean McCormick
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You got it.
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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If all that is so, then moving in the open adjacent to a unit reasonably capable of Op firing is about the stupidest thing you can possibly do, got it...


Yes, yes, yes!

Imagine 10 men with rifles and a machine gun. Don't put any effective fire on them and instead just decide that you can charge them. Hmmm.....

BoB has been criticized for how ineffective long range fire at people in cover can be and yet how deadly it is in the above situation. I argue that it is something that I got really right.
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Kyle
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Curse your sudden but inevitable action denial!
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Exactly, which is why you need to suppress before moving adjacent. The odds are a lot better if there's only a 50% chance the defending unit even activates!
 
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Eric L
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Thank you so much for this question and answer. Spelling it out helps me very much as I continuously overthink (I think).

Anyway, wondering about hedgerows and line of site and removal of concealed markers and perhaps decoy markers. Just in scenario 1, full of hedgerows.

If it is strictly as I see it in the rules "hedgerows block LOS unless the firer and/or target are adjacent to the hedgerow." Then I understand clearly. However, I find myself thinking (perhaps too much).

US moves to 8B1 from 8C1. The "player" sees a concealed German marker on 8B5. It is in line of site, I think. Though the US unit is not firing yet or defending yet, so is line of site even something that can possibly be checked and reveal units?

I am confused as to the sequence of events here. The German player might not want to show their hand and says continue, but due to LOS does the US see them (i.e. see concealed unit?) or not? I mean the concealed chit is adjacent to a hedgerow.

Perhaps the Germans keep concealed and elect not to op fire, can the US assault fire? Isn't the German conceal marker in LOS?

All the permutations are coursing through my head now and I am wondering what can and cannot be done.

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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Yep. When the US unit moves to 8B1, both units see each other. If the US unit was concealed, it would lose concealment because it is in the open and LOS. The German unit retains concealment unless it fires. The German unit has the option of Op Firing at this point. If they decline, the US unit can continue movement or end the move and assault fire.
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Eric L
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Jim Krohn wrote:
Yep. When the US unit moves to 8B1, both units see each other. If the US unit was concealed, it would lose concealment because it is in the open and LOS. The German unit retains concealment unless it fires. The German unit has the option of Op Firing at this point. If they decline, the US unit can continue movement or end the move and assault fire.


Under the Concealment rules bullet 3 for removing concealment (and decoy) states they are removed if in open ground and in LOS to enemy unit. Seems like the Germans in 8B5 meet this criteria and would lose concealment and if it was a decoy this would also be removed.

I looked up Hedgerow rules and don't see a stipulation refuting this removal. The Hedgerow example pic isn't quite large enough but I guess this means in Situation 4 if the German unit was Concealed and/or a decoy the counters would be removed?

Maybe I am missing a rule that states an Open Ground hex is treated differently if a hex side is a hedgerow and a LOS line between centers cross such an adjacent hex line and only one of the units involved is adjacent to the hedgerow hex line? That sentence is why I think I confuse myself.
 
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Jim Krohn
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Now you have me concerned that when we tightened the rules we introduced an error. I will have to look into it.

Since I am on the run right now, let me at least give you the intent. As long as you have a beneficial terrain modifier, you can retain your concealment. In this case, you are not considered in Open Ground because you are behind the hedgerow.

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Guido Gloor
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Jim Krohn wrote:
Now you have me concerned that when we tightened the rules we introduced an error. I will have to look into it.

Since I am on the run right now, let me at least give you the intent. As long as you have a beneficial terrain modifier, you can retain your concealment. In this case, you are not considered in Open Ground because you are behind the hedgerow.

I think you're fine, because the Glossary defines "Open Ground" exactly like you do in your post:

Glossary Rules 2.1 wrote:
Open Ground 52.0 9.0, 11.0 Terrain that does not provide any beneficial modifiers against enemy Fire attacks or block Line of Sight.

52.0 also specifies that "This increase is not applied if there are any other negative terrain modifiers that would apply, like the -1 for firing uphill."

So bullet point 3 would not apply because the German unit in 8B5 is not considered to be in Open Ground due to the hedgerow.
 
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Eric L
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haslo wrote:
Jim Krohn wrote:
Now you have me concerned that when we tightened the rules we introduced an error. I will have to look into it.

Since I am on the run right now, let me at least give you the intent. As long as you have a beneficial terrain modifier, you can retain your concealment. In this case, you are not considered in Open Ground because you are behind the hedgerow.

I think you're fine, because the Glossary defines "Open Ground" exactly like you do in your post:

Glossary Rules 2.1 wrote:
Open Ground 52.0 9.0, 11.0 Terrain that does not provide any beneficial modifiers against enemy Fire attacks or block Line of Sight.

52.0 also specifies that "This increase is not applied if there are any other negative terrain modifiers that would apply, like the -1 for firing uphill."

So bullet point 3 would not apply because the German unit in 8B5 is not considered to be in Open Ground due to the hedgerow.


There's a glossary? Oh, I see.

I do not see how either of the areas you mention affect LOS and the removal of Concealed and Decoy. I guess I would like to see something clarifying or stating a negative terrain modifier if applicable means Concealed and Decoy markers are not removed. My strict reading in the rules and all areas I can find that apply simply indicate that If in Open Ground (which even if you are next to a Hedgerow I see nothing stating you are no longer in open ground. The glossary does not mention any stipulation or exception) and LOS remove the counters.

I'm kind of really procedural in my rules use, so when I read bullet 3 under 15.0 Conceal Counters & Decoys, I do what it says. I do not expect exceptions to crop up later. Exceptions could be on the play aid or in a chart or there could be exceptions elsewhere in the rules IF under 15.0 it was noted where these can be found. Without that I assume the rule is a rule as stated.
 
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Guido Gloor
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ludyee wrote:
My strict reading in the rules and all areas I can find that apply simply indicate that If in Open Ground (which even if you are next to a Hedgerow I see nothing stating you are no longer in open ground. The glossary does not mention any stipulation or exception) and LOS remove the counters.

I think that's where your misconception comes from. "Open Ground" is not "hex with green with nothing in it". "Hex with green with nothing in it" is nothing at all. It only becomes "Open Ground" for units that have no negative terrain modifier (because no negative terrain modifiers affect green hexes), just like Foxholes in green hexes are "Open Ground" for units that enter or leave their hex.

A unit behind a hedgerow cannot be in Open Ground, because it has a negative terrain modifier and the only units in Open Ground are those that have no negative terrain modifier.

(Though my intuition was "this green thing here is an open ground hex", too, admittedly, the rules don't really support this intuition...)
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Eric L
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haslo wrote:
ludyee wrote:
My strict reading in the rules and all areas I can find that apply simply indicate that If in Open Ground (which even if you are next to a Hedgerow I see nothing stating you are no longer in open ground. The glossary does not mention any stipulation or exception) and LOS remove the counters.

I think that's where your misconception comes from. "Open Ground" is not "hex with green with nothing in it". "Hex with green with nothing in it" is nothing at all. It only becomes "Open Ground" for units that have no negative terrain modifier (because no negative terrain modifiers affect green hexes), just like Foxholes in green hexes are "Open Ground" for units that enter or leave their hex.

A unit behind a hedgerow cannot be in Open Ground, because it has a negative terrain modifier and the only units in Open Ground are those that have no negative terrain modifier.


OK, I get you. It makes sense how you say it. The rules, did not lead me to see it that way. In section 52.0 any hex without terrain in the center dot is Open Ground. Hedgerows along an edge do not negate that the Hex is Open Ground. Firing across a hex edge with a hedgerow affects modifiers normally attributable to Open Ground, but the Hex does not lose the Open Ground classification.

Beating a dead horse I know, but I'm just trying to reconcile the statements in the rules. I never get to know a game well enough to memorize all rules and using the rules as a reference will likely cause me to wonder and be confused again someday in the future. I'll have to mark it up or print out a FAQ or something so I do not interpret them the way I think they read.
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Russ Williams
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ludyee wrote:
In section 52.0 any hex without terrain in the center dot is Open Ground. Hedgerows along an edge do not negate that the Hex is Open Ground.


Gotta agree with you on this; it does seem unambiguous here in the rules:

rules wrote:
52.0 OPEN GROUND
Any hex without terrain on the center hex dot is considered Open Ground.


And section "55.0 HEDGEROWS" does not say anything about making an "Open Ground" hex not be "Open Ground".

But then the rules sometimes say things like "They are not considered in Open Ground if they have a beneficial terrain modifier against all direct fire (Foxholes, Hedgerows, Halftracks etc.)" (in "11.0 ROUT PHASE"). I agree that it seems confusing to explicitly define Open Ground as being based on the terrain of the center hex dot (which is very simple and clear), but then to use it in a more abstract complex generalized sense in the context of other rules.
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Dave Webster
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ludyee wrote:
\OK, I get you. It makes sense how you say it. The rules, did not lead me to see it that way. In section 52.0 any hex without terrain in the center dot is Open Ground. Hedgerows along an edge do not negate that the Hex is Open Ground. Firing across a hex edge with a hedgerow affects modifiers normally attributable to Open Ground, but the Hex does not lose the Open Ground classification.

This is an important distinction. The unit is in Open Ground (per 52.0) and this matters because the unit could be fired upon by a different attacker whose LOS doesn't cross a Hedgerow hexside or come from lower ground and would therefore receive the +4 Open Ground bonus or deny concealment. And while the glossary may be accurate, it is a reference and should not introduce new rules itself.

I believe Jim has the right answer; in version 2.2 of the rulebook, modify the last sentence to the end of section 52.0 to state that units in Open Ground do not lose concealment if all LOS to the unit would incur a negative DRM.
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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There's a glossary? Oh, I see.


Yes! There is now.

Regardless of whether the rules are technically correct, they could be improved. I want to tighten them to eliminate any confusion.

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