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Zombicide: Black Plague» Forums » Variants

Subject: Survivors that count for two rss

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Andres Montanes-Lleras
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Many people have mentioned how certain survivors seem overpowered; especially the ones that have +1 Damage in Blue (making easier to kill the abomination) and probably the ones that have Barbarian in Blue as well.

In order to keep the game more or less balanced, I am thinking that a possible house rule could be to count those survivors as two. Meaning that if you pick Milo (+1 Damage: Magic) or Klom (Barbarian) in a 6 survivors mission, you could only pick 4 more survivors (for a total of 5).

What do you think? What other abilities could be added to the list?
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Tyrell Wood
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let us know how it plays out!
 
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Peter Cooper
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Our players felt that we would use the more powerful characters at first, then we threw in all the abominations. Every game we have played is fun, and we need the powerful characters to kill abominations while the others do other valuable work. It felt balanced to have The Black Currant or the others there - after all, there are dangers more scary than a standard abomination. I have played as a lower level character and as a more powerful one, and I didn't feel out of place in either game.
 
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Jeffrey Nolin
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Powerful heroes are necessary when the forces of evil are powerful. When only vanilla evil is involved, then vanilla heroes suffice.
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Bone White
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montanus wrote:
What other abilities could be added to the list?


Super Strength.
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Brian
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What if two players choose an op character, do you run 4 total characters? Or is it more 1.5 round up so you still get 5 with two OP, but only 4 with three OP?
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Andres Montanes-Lleras
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Stephanie Baynes wrote:
Our players felt that we would use the more powerful characters at first, then we threw in all the abominations. Every game we have played is fun, and we need the powerful characters to kill abominations while the others do other valuable work. It felt balanced to have The Black Currant or the others there - after all, there are dangers more scary than a standard abomination. I have played as a lower level character and as a more powerful one, and I didn't feel out of place in either game.


I have not played with any extra abominations (I mostly play solo handling all the characters), which makes the OP characters feel even more OP.

How do you feel the extra abominations affect the difficulty level of the game? Do you recomend getting them?
 
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Andres Montanes-Lleras
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Bone White wrote:
montanus wrote:
What other abilities could be added to the list?


Super Strength.


Of course!

I don't remember, though, are there any character that has Super Strenght in Blue?
 
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Andres Montanes-Lleras
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Melriken wrote:
What if two players choose an op character, do you run 4 total characters? Or is it more 1.5 round up so you still get 5 with two OP, but only 4 with three OP?


I think this would require some playtesting.

I usually play solo, so I would probably use just one OP anyways.
 
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Bone White
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montanus wrote:
I don't remember, though, are there any character that has Super Strenght in Blue?


Xuxa
 
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Jeffrey Nolin
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montanus wrote:
Stephanie Baynes wrote:
Our players felt that we would use the more powerful characters at first, then we threw in all the abominations. Every game we have played is fun, and we need the powerful characters to kill abominations while the others do other valuable work. It felt balanced to have The Black Currant or the others there - after all, there are dangers more scary than a standard abomination. I have played as a lower level character and as a more powerful one, and I didn't feel out of place in either game.


I have not played with any extra abominations (I mostly play solo handling all the characters), which makes the OP characters feel even more OP.

How do you feel the extra abominations affect the difficulty level of the game? Do you recomend getting them?


Don't forget to use lots of necromancer, as well!
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Mike
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longagoigo wrote:
Powerful heroes are necessary when the forces of evil are powerful. When only vanilla evil is involved, then vanilla heroes suffice.


No. When vanilla evil is involved, only chocolate heroes will suffice.
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Peter Cooper
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montanus wrote:
How do you feel the extra abominations affect the difficulty level of the game? Do you recomend getting them?


It depends on how you feel your game is going at the moment. We were winning nearly all of our games, with the feel of threat going away as the game went on and we got more powerful as survivors. When we put the Abominations in (all of them, but with only two spawns each) along with another Necromancer, the threat level stays high even when we are on Red level survivors. So I would say the abominations are essential, especially if you have better survivor characters.
 
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Chad Walton
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I don't find Barbarian at blue all that good. There isn't usually large groups until later.

Of the heroes I own (base set, Wulfsburg, 4 Guest boxes)the two heroes that absolutely dominate are Silas and Genevieve.
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Andres Montanes-Lleras
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C.H.A.D. wrote:
I don't find Barbarian at blue all that good. There isn't usually large groups until later.

Of the heroes I own (base set, Wulfsburg, 4 Guest boxes)the two heroes that absolutely dominate are Silas and Genevieve.


I am curious, how would you compare the two? I really like Silas, and find his blue ability powerful, but balanced, but I don't have Paul Bonner's box (and I am thinking of getting it). How would you compare their respective blue abilities? Have you used them both at the same time?
 
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Brian
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Bone White wrote:
montanus wrote:
I don't remember, though, are there any character that has Super Strenght in Blue?
Xuxa
Honestly Xuxa is the only one I would consider OP at blue. Barbarian or Rain skills are basically useless at blue (they do something between nothing and +1 die) not much better at yellow (my interpretation is that you can't dual wield with them, YMMV), and become good someplace around late yellow early orange.

Sure they are amazing in red, but others can get them in orange and red without paying your penalty.

+1 damage lets you kill fatties, or with a 2 damage weapon kill abominations, but most abominations don't spawn at blue so really just fatties... It helps, but is it really better than +1 die? Again later it is amazing to use against abominations, but you are still restricted to 2 damage weapons for that.

Super strength lets you kill abominations at yellow with 1 damage weapons... One of the hardest points in the game (late enough that full abomination spawning is in effect, extra activations too, but early enough that you often haven't found the 'good' weapons.) while the +1 damage guy is still looking for a decent 2 damage weapon that matches his ability your off killing abominations with whatever is handy.

I would MUCH rather have +1 die, free action (including spellcaster), or the ability you missed that should really be on your list, Search: +1 Card.
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I wouldn't even consider Xuxa OP in blue. The chances of having an Abom in blue are pretty slim anyways. More OP would be the Hold Your Nose skill. You are already clearing only a zombie or two at a time. You get the xp, free search, and since you are not using one of your 3 actions for searching then you get an additional move. Speed and searching are essential in the early game.

I will agree she shines in yellow though.
 
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Andres Montanes-Lleras
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Melriken wrote:
Bone White wrote:
montanus wrote:
I don't remember, though, are there any character that has Super Strenght in Blue?
Xuxa
Honestly Xuxa is the only one I would consider OP at blue. Barbarian or Rain skills are basically useless at blue (they do something between nothing and +1 die) not much better at yellow (my interpretation is that you can't dual wield with them, YMMV), and become good someplace around late yellow early orange.

Sure they are amazing in red, but others can get them in orange and red without paying your penalty.

+1 damage lets you kill fatties, or with a 2 damage weapon kill abominations, but most abominations don't spawn at blue so really just fatties... It helps, but is it really better than +1 die? Again later it is amazing to use against abominations, but you are still restricted to 2 damage weapons for that.

Super strength lets you kill abominations at yellow with 1 damage weapons... One of the hardest points in the game (late enough that full abomination spawning is in effect, extra activations too, but early enough that you often haven't found the 'good' weapons.) while the +1 damage guy is still looking for a decent 2 damage weapon that matches his ability your off killing abominations with whatever is handy.

I would MUCH rather have +1 die, free action (including spellcaster), or the ability you missed that should really be on your list, Search: +1 Card.


My concern, again, is how both change the dynamic of the game in a way other skills, I believe, do not.

Though I agree that this is even more extreme in the case of Super Strength, having the +1 damage early on means that you have one more character able to kill fatties (in addition to the one holding the hammer) and much more chances to kill an early abomination (by finding a 2 damage weapon instead of finding and putting together the torch and the dragon bile), which effectively reduces the threat from both and takes away some of the urgency for finding those good weapons.

 
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Brian
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hoodwink99 wrote:
I wouldn't even consider Xuxa OP in blue. The chances of having an Abom in blue are pretty slim anyways. More OP would be the Hold Your Nose skill. You are already clearing only a zombie or two at a time. You get the xp, free search, and since you are not using one of your 3 actions for searching then you get an additional move. Speed and searching are essential in the early game.

I will agree she shines in yellow though.
Sorry I phrased that terribly, when I said Xuxa in blue I meant the ability in blue... Yeah she isn't bad until yellow...
 
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Brian
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montanus wrote:
My concern, again, is how both change the dynamic of the game in a way other skills, I believe, do not.

Though I agree that this is even more extreme in the case of Super Strength, having the +1 damage early on means that you have one more character able to kill fatties (in addition to the one holding the hammer) and much more chances to kill an early abomination (by finding a 2 damage weapon instead of finding and putting together the torch and the dragon bile), which effectively reduces the threat from both and takes away some of the urgency for finding those good weapons.
+1 damage melee changes the game because you start with a 2 damage melee weapon, +1 damage magic or ranged only really change things when and if you find a 2 damage weapon for them before hitting orange and spawn an abomination, once you hit orange other characters start picking up +1 damage.

Super Strength is two copies of a good ability (+1 damage melee) the fact that we are even talking about the others being possibly OP says a LOT about just how rediculous Xuxa is for having super strength at blue.

If you play with hero box 1 you have two starting hammers, so +1 damage letting you kill fatties is a lot less special.
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These are also reasons I developed a hit point based system for Aboms that was fairly well received. It minimalizes the impact of many of these "OP" skills so they are more in line with other skills and not necessary.
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Andres Montanes-Lleras
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Melriken wrote:
montanus wrote:
My concern, again, is how both change the dynamic of the game in a way other skills, I believe, do not.

Though I agree that this is even more extreme in the case of Super Strength, having the +1 damage early on means that you have one more character able to kill fatties (in addition to the one holding the hammer) and much more chances to kill an early abomination (by finding a 2 damage weapon instead of finding and putting together the torch and the dragon bile), which effectively reduces the threat from both and takes away some of the urgency for finding those good weapons.
+1 damage melee changes the game because you start with a 2 damage melee weapon, +1 damage magic or ranged only really change things when and if you find a 2 damage weapon for them before hitting orange and spawn an abomination, once you hit orange other characters start picking up +1 damage.

Super Strength is two copies of a good ability (+1 damage melee) the fact that we are even talking about the others being possibly OP says a LOT about just how rediculous Xuxa is for having super strength at blue.

If you play with hero box 1 you have two starting hammers, so +1 damage letting you kill fatties is a lot less special.


I do play with hero box 1, but I decided to stay with the six basic equipment of the base set, precisely because of that.

I think the 3 short swords, 1 hammer, 1 short bow and 1 mana blast are a conscious and clever design decision to create some sense of roles and a more or less balanced party: You have three "generic" characters, a "strong guy(or gal)," an "archer" and a "magician."
 
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Andres Montanes-Lleras
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After playing a few 6-character games with 5 characters, one of them having +1 damage in blue, I think the idea of limiting this characters has definetively some validity, though I am still not sure if making them count for two is too much of a handicap.

On the one hand, the character with the +1 damage consistently shinned and in most ocassions rendered abomination an easy, non-threatening, 5 point walker (totally anticlimactic!)

On the other hand, having one less character (and therefore 3 less actions and 3 less wounds to spare) proved also very challenging in some scenarios where the party was ultimately overrun.

While this still needs more playtesting, I would say at the very least limiting the characters with +1 damage to 1 per party/game is a must if you want to keep the abomination in particular a meaningful threat.
 
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Brian Augustine
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I'm planning to put the survivors into three groups based on their perceived power levels, and playing games with two from each group.
 
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Andres Montanes-Lleras
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ProjectGSX wrote:
I'm planning to put the survivors into three groups based on their perceived power levels, and playing games with two from each group.


Sounds interesting. Do you have any examples, particularly of what would be the difference between lower and medium level?

Have you also considered 3/2/1 (3 lower level, 2 medium level and 1 higher level)?
 
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