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Subject: Now live on Kickstarter rss

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Kate Finch
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We've made it, no-one collapsed under the stress of it all!

Unfair is now live on Kickstarter and we are loving seeing just how many people are coming out to help us get this wonderful game to market. Thank you all so much

We've worked on the Kickstarter page for about 5 weeks now and it has been a mammoth effort, especially by Joel and Kim.

Make sure that you check out the video - fantastic animation and gorgeous voiceover to back up Mr Cuddington's wonderful art.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1960349413/unfair
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Joao C L Mendonca
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misskatja wrote:
We've made it, no-one collapsed under the stress of it all!

Unfair is now live on Kickstarter and we are loving seeing just how many people are coming out to help us get this wonderful game to market. Thank you all so much

We've worked on the Kickstarter page for about 5 weeks now and it has been a mammoth effort, especially by Joel and Kim.

Make sure that you check out the video - fantastic animation and gorgeous voiceover to back up Mr Cuddington's wonderful art.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1960349413/unfair


Has a person that grown playing Theme Park in 1994 where i spent countless hours building the best rides and cleaning the vomit!

This was an insta backing!
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Siegfried Steurer
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will this game be available at Essen?
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Joel Finch
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Gibmaatsuki wrote:
will this game be available at Essen?

We'd love to have pickup at Essen, and we're doing all we can to make that happen, but we don't want to make promises that we don't keep, so at this stage it's not an option we're offering. Sorry it's not better news
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Mr Avers
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Backed as soon as we saw it on Kickstarter, after a game of Steam Park

joelfinch wrote:
We'd love to have pickup at Essen, and we're doing all we can to make that happen, but we don't want to make promises that we don't keep, so at this stage it's not an option we're offering. Sorry it's not better news


Saw the expected delivery of December and found that fast already. Essen pickup would be great, though I expect that the campaign will create quite a few stretch goals, so hopefully that won't slow the production down.
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Joel Finch
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GhundiPI wrote:
Saw the expected delivery of December and found that fast already. Essen pickup would be great, though I expect that the campaign will create quite a few stretch goals, so hopefully that won't slow the production down.

We've designed the stretch goals very carefully so that they won't slow us down a great deal - new content is tested, and our artists are ready and available for whatever new artwork the stretches end up needing. We're making every choice we can to deliver quickly, without compromising the quality.
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Stefan D
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Will the stretch goals be backer exclusive/additional content NOT in the base game or will the stretches just be adding to the contents of the production version of the game
?
I'm debating whether to back or wait until it comes out retail.

With international postage it comes out on the high-end cost wise.. but if there are tangible bonuses to Kickstarter backing over retail then i would probably back.
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Kate Finch
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Jetpac wrote:
Will the stretch goals be backer exclusive/additional content NOT in the base game or will the stretches just be adding to the contents of the production version of the game?


This is something that we've really laboured over.

We know there are Kickstarter supporters who enjoy getting exclusive content when they back a project. But there are just many, if not more, people who don't like missing out on content purely because they weren't in the position to be an early adopter.

So our stretch goals fall into three basic categories:
1. Improving the quality of components - heavier stock, deluxe finish on cards, things like that.
2. Expanding the content of the base game.
3. Providing teasers for planned future expansions. This allows us to get some of the future content out there significantly sooner than waiting for the full expansions.

These teasers won't be included in the retail version so people who pick up a copy at their FLGS will have to wait for the full expansion to see any of that content, so there is a degree of exclusivity there potentially.
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Craig Somerton
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Jetpac wrote:
With international postage it comes out on the high-end cost wise.. but if there are tangible bonuses to Kickstarter backing over retail then i would probably back.

$10 shipping is high cost? Try living in Australia.
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Stefan D
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I'm not saying the shipping cost is high,but when added on takes it from an easier purchase to a more considered purchase....the UK gets hit pretty hard by kick-started postage too yaknow.....although not relevant here as I'm sure you are aware it is free to AUS laugh

I'm just one of those who looks for benefits for taking on the 'risk' and being an early supporter of a game.. if there is no benefit (aside from getting it a month earlier) it's a better deal just to wait for retail where the risk is gone and often the costs are lower.
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Christoph K
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misskatja wrote:
Jetpac wrote:
Will the stretch goals be backer exclusive/additional content NOT in the base game or will the stretches just be adding to the contents of the production version of the game?


This is something that we've really laboured over.

We know there are Kickstarter supporters who enjoy getting exclusive content when they back a project. But there are just many, if not more, people who don't like missing out on content purely because they weren't in the position to be an early adopter.

So our stretch goals fall into three basic categories:
1. Improving the quality of components - heavier stock, deluxe finish on cards, things like that.
2. Expanding the content of the base game.
3. Providing teasers for planned future expansions. This allows us to get some of the future content out there significantly sooner than waiting for the full expansions.

These teasers won't be included in the retail version so people who pick up a copy at their FLGS will have to wait for the full expansion to see any of that content, so there is a degree of exclusivity there potentially.

I definitely support the decision to not include kickstarter exclusives as to not reduce the worth of the retail edition. However I'm really not a fan of the teaser card idea. If the game is only half as good as I imagine I'd get the expensions anyway and apart from having a little amount of cards beforehand, those teasers wouldn't have any use anymore.
It also seems there's not really a discount to MSRP either, so backing now does not feel like that good of a deal (apart from kickstarter spirit).

I think there would be much more incentive to jump onto the kickstarter if, instead of giving teaser cards of various expansions to backers, you'd unlock one single expansion to be included for backers already. That means people who didn't back can get it in retail later and potential Kickstarter supporters get a really good reason to join now. Take a look at Fate of the Elder Gods for example.

I really would like to get this, but if retail is going to be the better deal it's a bit hard to justify.

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Joel Finch
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The critical point is that support at Kickstarter will determine the amount of content we can add to the base game, specifically theme packs. If you wait for retail, the game that everyone gets may be smaller than it could be. By backing at Kickstarter, sure, you're helping people you've never met, but you are also still helping yourself.

The point of the teaser cards is that they are playable, and I hope they're additional fun (they're certainly meant to be, anyway! )

They may eventually be replaced when the expansion packs come out, that's the plan, but we have no timeline locked in for expansions - so Kickstarter backers will have the use and enjoyment of them until then.
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Stefan D
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I mean fair enough if that's the way you want to spin it.
But you have the 2 expansions finished and already plan to include them realistically as the Kickstarter game is priced at retail, so the cost of actually printing the extra 2 decks is included in your retail valuation. Unless you plan on jacking up the price for retail which would make the game unviably expensive.

Don't get me wrong, it looks like a really great game and i'm sure from what i've read and seen that it will be a roaring success and i'm almost certain it will end up in my collection.

But there is no incentive for me to back... i'm essentially preordering a game but with more risk associated (i'm not insinuating anything will go wrong... but sometimes they do and as a backer there is no comeback from that). And to be honest... on release I will probably be able to pick up cheaper through either shipping, promotion or retailer site discount).

I don't think you should ram ridiculous amounts of content at all, but Kickstarter bonuses reward those who take the risk, they are rewards for getting in early.. be it exclusives or added content which don't come with the retail version.
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Rik Claessens
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Jetpac wrote:
I mean fair enough if that's the way you want to spin it.
But you have the 2 expansions finished and already plan to include them realistically as the Kickstarter game is priced at retail, so the cost of actually printing the extra 2 decks is included in your retail valuation. Unless you plan on jacking up the price for retail which would make the game unviably expensive.


I think Jetpac makes a very good point here. I also was expecting some Kickstarter exclusives. We're helping launching the game into retail sure, but what's the point of backing as soon as the funding goal is met? Then you could just withdraw your pledge, get the game in a local store with the same contents as through Kickstarter.

I still like the idea of having Kickstarter Exclusive components like metal tokens, custom player mats and discounted (or included) expansions.
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Paul Long
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As a backer, I think getting promos for a game are a reasonable reward. But I do not agree that anything needs to be exclusive for it to be a reward.

Jetpac wrote:
But you have the 2 expansions finished and already plan to include them realistically as the Kickstarter game is priced at retail, so the cost of actually printing the extra 2 decks is included in your retail valuation.


Or perhaps they are able to get volume discounts that allow more content in the same package, or finalise artwork on the decks. There are multiple reasons why more content can be added as volume grows. I'm all for more being available for all the owners of the game.

Jetpac wrote:
But there is no incentive for me to back... i'm essentially preordering a game but with more risk associated.


Applying that argument, then there is no reason to back any Kickstarter. The reason to back a project is to see it delivered with all the content that volume can deliver.

If you look at successful Kickstarters like Scythe, they have no exclusive content. The stretch goals are either added to the retail versions of the game or provided to Kickstarters but available for purchase afterwards.

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Stefan D
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Befefig wrote:
As a backer, I think getting promos for a game are a reasonable reward. But I do not agree that anything needs to be exclusive for it to be a reward.

Jetpac wrote:
But you have the 2 expansions finished and already plan to include them realistically as the Kickstarter game is priced at retail, so the cost of actually printing the extra 2 decks is included in your retail valuation.


Or perhaps they are able to get volume discounts that allow more content in the same package, or finalise artwork on the decks. There are multiple reasons why more content can be added as volume grows. I'm all for more being available for all the owners of the game.

Jetpac wrote:
But there is no incentive for me to back... i'm essentially preordering a game but with more risk associated.


Applying that argument, then there is no reason to back any Kickstarter. The reason to back a project is to see it delivered with all the content that volume can deliver.

If you look at successful Kickstarters like Scythe, they have no exclusive content. The stretch goals are either added to the retail versions of the game or provided to Kickstarters but available for purchase afterwards.



I'm not saying it absolutely should be exclusive.. but at the same time i am saying that it is not necessarily a bad thing.

I get the volumes of scale argument but I'm talking in terms of moving forward with retail. It's marketing. It's not at all wrong its a great kickstarter method of generating extra backers.

A great deal of kickstarters provide benefits to their backers in the form of:

Reasonable discount to RRP
Kickstarter exclusives
'More for your money' bonus content over retail. (stuff that will be sold, but gets added for free to backers)
exclusive editions that won't make retail.
etc.

As far as i can tell unfair has none of these things.

The game is being made, it will reach those stretch goals you know this I know this. There will be many who havent backed sitting on the fence...like me waiting to see what happens..

Now.. the question.. why should I back.... The game will come with all the content and to me it will cost $59.

Why should i not wait for it to hit retail in the UK, where at worst it will be $55 including shipping, Likely lower + any retailer 10% codes etc potentially taking it closer to $40-45.

It falls into the category of expensive games. Again im not complaining about the price here... but it moves it from a yea.. i will buy that to a more considered purchase... comparatively the Heroes of Normandie kickstarter which costs the same is arguably a Significantly more expensive game to produce and delivered a large amount of additional content as well.

Now i know this sounds actually quite aggressive, finger-pointy and ranty, but it isn't, it's more of a pragmatic series of statements/questions.
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Joshua Koshar
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I think your concerns and ideas are completely valid. As a US backer, the free shipping can justify the price and I LOVE the game so far, but, I'm considering pulling out and waiting for retail if there's no incentive to stick with it. Ideally it'd be extra content (not exclusive, but maybe a mini expansion or more themes or such included for free that will be available later.)

I know the creator has said more play testing is needed, and I appreciate that (really), but I really am looking for some sort of extra game content, 4 themes doesn't feel like a whole lot especially if you're looking to play 4 players with all 4 themes fairly often, I want to be able to change up the themes often enough.
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Stefan D
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Joshkosh wrote:
I think your concerns and ideas are completely valid. As a US backer, the free shipping can justify the price and I LOVE the game so far, but, I'm considering pulling out and waiting for retail if there's no incentive to stick with it. Ideally it'd be extra content (not exclusive, but maybe a mini expansion or more themes or such included for free that will be available later.)

I know the creator has said more play testing is needed, and I appreciate that (really), but I really am looking for some sort of extra game content, 4 themes doesn't feel like a whole lot especially if you're looking to play 4 players with all 4 themes fairly often, I want to be able to change up the themes often enough.


Well, the extra 2 themes will come so you will get that extra content. I think realistically commenting on 4 themes is moot now as there are 6 that will come with it but that will be just as a standard base game.

And if that's what is is, then that's what it is.. no biggie. But it does make it a full RRP preorder, but without the security of definitely recieving the product or money back

Very cynical view i know, and again no accusations or muddying of anyone's reputations here, but I have backed a few projects before that have gone south and ive ended up in the hole.. and ive backed some as more 'preorders' only to regret the decision when i could have got what i backed for significantly less than i kickstarted for.

It happens, I'm just desperatly looking for reasons to back this.
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Paul Long
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Jetpac wrote:
I'm not saying it absolutely should be exclusive.. but at the same time i am saying that it is not necessarily a bad thing.

We'll just have to disagree on this point. There are plenty of "completionists" in the hobby and I think exclusives can drive the wrong kind of secondary market. But that's a very different topic.


Jetpac wrote:

A great deal of kickstarters provide benefits to their backers in the form of:
'More for your money' bonus content over retail. (stuff that will be sold, but gets added for free to backers)

Like the promos mentioned for Unfair? Retail buyers will have to pay for them.

Of course, the most common Kickstarter stretch goals are improvements to the base game - card stock, component quality etc.

Jetpac wrote:
The game is being made, it will reach those stretch goals you know this I know this.

Again, we'll just have to disagree. The amount of stretch goals met will be determined by the Kickstarters. So taking your argument at scale - either you can have the game with more content by Kickstarting it or wait for retail and have less content.

But saying "I'll wait for retail but still get all the content" will only happen if 1000's of people disagree with you and fund that content through Kickstarter. (And then wait for the expansion to play with the promos). Which is my earlier point - the reason to back it is to see it delivered with the maximum content. That's why I have backed it.

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Stefan D
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The Promos have only been listed as a few teaser cards, nothing substantial... which at the moment will be mopped up in the expansions anyway (no kickstarter exclusives...) if that was fleshed out then they may be onto something....

Of course there are quality upgrade, but again.. those alone, just backing to upgrade the retail base game Kickstarters are few and far between.

The game is clearly good, and well designed. The game has smashed its target and will get the stretch goals as well... the extra 2 decks will be added and we already know from feedback and what we have been told in various guises that the component quality is already what you would expect from such a game.

Component upgrades.. welcomed but not essential in this case.
There are a significant number of people who will back who arent as bothered by this as me... but there are also a significant number of people wondering the same question as me...

Why should i back at a (more thank likely) higher price than i will have to pay for exactly the same thing at retail? With the added risk that it might not deliver.

I'm all for altruism, but this is business, not a charity as assholeish as that sounds. People don't invest early in companies to give them a helping hand... they invest to leverage a position of risk hoping their investment comes good and they end up in a position of gain rather than loss or status quo.
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Stefan D
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BTW I am aware that in the context of written text and on a forum i am coming across as a bit of an obstinant asshole here.

This is not at all my intention, I want the game but at the best value for my money i can get.
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Kate Finch
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Joshkosh wrote:
Ideally it'd be extra content (not exclusive, but maybe a mini expansion or more themes or such included for free that will be available later.)


That's exactly what our stretch goals are beyond upping the quality of components. We've just announced the first two, one of which is a full extra deck, and the other is a pair of teaser cards for a future expansion. I hope you like them
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Stefan D
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misskatja wrote:
Joshkosh wrote:
Ideally it'd be extra content (not exclusive, but maybe a mini expansion or more themes or such included for free that will be available later.)


That's exactly what our stretch goals are beyond upping the quality of components. We've just announced the first two, one of which is a full extra deck, and the other is a pair of teaser cards for a future expansion. I hope you like them


Look like awesome themes! Love te destructive Ninjas..
But would i be right in saying that should this goal be reached.. these stretch goals will go into the retail version on Unfair as well?
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Kate Finch
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Jetpac wrote:
But would i be right in saying that should this goal be reached.. these stretch goals will go into the retail version on Unfair as well?


The full Ninja deck will be included in the retail version.

The teasers for Aliens, and any other teasers for other themes that may pop up as stretch goals, will not be included the retail version.

Instead they will be released in expansions down the track. That way, our Kickstarter supporters get early access to content that could be some time away from release. It may not be wholly exclusive, but it will be exclusive for a good period of time - getting the full extra decks that would be in an expansion to market won't be a quick process.
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Kim Brebach
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Stefan as the publisher I think your views are fine. As you say I don't think they are representative of what everyone thinks, or in my opinion very close. But they are valid and yours. No probs.

I can assure you that we do rely on slim margins in kickstarter to pay for expensive art costs and increase our realistic print volumes to lower per unit costs, and that you helping to back now will increase the probability of a few these extra theme packs full of fun and art and cardstock and gameplay coming in the box so you don't have to pay standalone prices for them later.

If your primary motivation is one of an economic investment and return and we aren't offering you a compelling enough case on top of the fun and buzz and fuzzy contribution vibes then that's all good. Honestly. You're support via retail will be just as appreciated - because everyone that buys in retail also improves the chances of restocks and a feeling for demand, which all supports us a business. We are VERY happy to support retailers. We run retail stores in Australia too so want to walk a line between backers who want to help make our games and retailers not feeling disadvantaged to sell them later.

The main thing here is that we dont want to get bogged down in debates about this stuff. We would rather focus on the positive fun stuff. There is plenty of that to be had.
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