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Subject: Should I buy this game? Don't like complex games though rss

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Donald M.
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I like all good games and heard and read this one is highly rated. The problem is the people I play with don't like to play long complex games and it is hard to find others who do.

When a game is rated over "4.00" it could mean that there are a lot of rules but they don't need to be memorized or is intuitive thus ok to play.

Other games have tons of rules to remember and is like bookkeeping which I dislike.

Do you think I should buy this game if this is the case? I can get it for a good price now.
 
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Aaron White
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You won't like this game then, and I doubt it'd fly w/ your group. Once you get into the symbology is really good... but the first time(s) you try to learn it would be very painful. It took a good couple plays (> 1hr) to start to understand how to even start accomplishing one's goals.
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Christophe Jannin
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There is 4 actions spots with 2 actions each. and you only do one action per turn. So not too many actions to choose from.
Each action is different though and has it's own "rule" if I may say.
The player aid is really well done and does a good job of explaining the process of each action.

The complexity of the game is that every action is related to all the others, the game being highly thematic. so you really need to understand the flow of the game and optimise how each action react with each other.

The game is not that difficult, but it's long, there's tons of way to score at the end, and some players can be overwhelmed by it. It's a great euro game though
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Lawrence
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Gallerist is my favorite game of all time.

That said, I would NOT recommend this to someone who hasn't had experience enjoying more complex Euro's. Your profile doesn't give me much info, but if you think games like Agricola or Terra Mystica are too complex, you won't like Gallerist. If your idea of a comfortable game weight is something in the range of 7 Wonders or Five Tribes, you probably won't like Gallerist.

While there are only 4 locations to go to and gameplay is theoretically simple, there are lots of mechanics to keep track of. The beauty and difficulty of Gallerist is that there aren't any real direct ways to get resources. You can't just go to a spot and collect $5. You'll need to discover/buy art, carefully manage their fame, manipulate your visitors, and find an opportune time to sell.

While I find the game intuitive, I've played with others who have difficulty keeping track of the rules. You have 3 types of visitors who each impact different parts of the game (influence, fame, money) and some people find the rules of when you move visitors and how to be fiddly. It all makes thematic sense though.

Expect a 4p game with new players to take over 2 hours.
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Kristi S
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Rodney of Watch It Played did a rules run-through, and also has additional videos showing a play-through.


Rahdo also did a run-through showing what it's like playing and coming up with strategy and decisions.


If folks here haven't already helped you make a decision, I recommend watching those resources so you can judge for yourself
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Donald M.
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mavericklancer wrote:
Gallerist is my favorite game of all time.

That said, I would NOT recommend this to someone who hasn't had experience enjoying more complex Euro's. Your profile doesn't give me much info, but if you think games like Agricola or Terra Mystica are too complex, you won't like Gallerist. If your idea of a comfortable game weight is something in the range of 7 Wonders or Five Tribes, you probably won't like Gallerist.

While there are only 4 locations to go to and gameplay is theoretically simple, there are lots of mechanics to keep track of. The beauty and difficulty of Gallerist is that there aren't any real direct ways to get resources. You can't just go to a spot and collect $5. You'll need to discover/buy art, carefully manage their fame, manipulate your visitors, and find an opportune time to sell.

While I find the game intuitive, I've played with others who have difficulty keeping track of the rules. You have 3 types of visitors who each impact different parts of the game (influence, fame, money) and some people find the rules of when you move visitors and how to be fiddly. It all makes thematic sense though.

Expect a 4p game with new players to take over 2 hours.


Thanks to you and everybody for the detailed explanation and help. I like medium weight games the best. Also games with easy to learn rules yet have depth in strategy. Carcassonee, TTR, Cacao, Splendor etc. Also like sprawling games like Dudes ion a map like Cyclades and Fortune and Glory. I probably like 5 Tribes and others in the "2.00 to 3.00" complexity rating. I do own Twilight Struggle and played it just once though. I'm leery of buying Caverna, Terra Mystica, Caylus etc. though I read they are fine games. I do own Agricola and though it is a heavy, I just had to own this major important game. My friend also has it so I at least played it once.

Most of my friends are newbies and I have to be very careful in choosing games that won't turn them away from the hobby. Dry games turn these people off.
 
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Y P
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My personal theory is this game got enough hype that people who don't normally play these types of games tried it out, and since they considered it heavy the weight rating soared over 4.0. Compared to other games I'd probably put it in the mid-3s myself, which is still plenty heavy but not nearly as intimidating as a 4+ would suggest.

There are 4 action spots on the board with 2 actions apiece, so 8 possible actions. Some turns you only have 3 spots available because the one you chose on your previous turn isn't available unless somebody else bumps you off of it. The number of options for a given turn isn't bad at all. Where the brain-burning comes in is planning ahead to chain those actions in the most efficient and effective way possible while keeping in mind how all of elements of the game are interconnected. Doing some actions will affect your supply of visitors and assistants, which in turn affects your ability to perform other actions. That's where it can get hairy.

While there are a lot of steps to perform for some actions, all actions have their steps clearly stated on the main board, player mats, or tiles. The graphic design is brilliant in the sense that it gives you all the tools you need to remember how to perform each action both in terms of requirements (which I've found is a common thing missing with many games) and steps. It'll take a few times doing them to remember the iconography and terminology, but the game plays very smoothly because of the graphic design once you've gotten the basics down.

Also worth considering is the endgame scoring. There are 7-8 or so different areas to score at the end of the game. If there's anything rules-wise that isn't immediately intuitive after a few rounds of play it's that.

If you want the best overview of the game including basically a full explanation of the rules, watch the Watch It Played video on it.

In conclusion, while the game plays incredibly smoothly for such a relatively heavy game, there's still a significant learning curve to get there. Personally I can't speak for you and your group since I don't know you or them, but from what you've described I would avoid this game for your group. There are plenty of light-mid to mid-weight Euros that would be a better fit I think.
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Y P
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You posted while I was typing my treatise, so I didn't see it before I posted. With the additional info you provided I recommend taking a look at these titles instead:

Alien Frontiers or Kingsburg - dice placement
Champions of Midgard - Viking themed worker placement with dice rolling for combat
Evolution - build your own creatures to eat those built by other players and avoid being eaten
Lanterns: The Harvest Festival - tile placement, easy rules
Nexus Ops (or Cry Havoc when it comes out) - classic Dudes on a Map
Paradox - time travel themed Euro with a Bejewelled mechanism for collecting resources
Viticulture: Essential Edition - one of the best light-mid worker placement games
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Although I like The Gallerist very much, I also feel like all the symbols take a bit to comprehend and (in my case) make immersion into the theme a bit harder. I wouldn't recommend this game to more casual players, because even when they get to learn the rules, it is the underlying strategies and their relationship what makes this game hard to master. And the latter take quite long to achieve...
 
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Shane Larsen
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It's simple. You don't like complex games. The Gallerist is a complex game. The Gallerist is not for you.
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Donald M.
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thedacker wrote:
It's simple. You don't like complex games. The Gallerist is a complex game. The Gallerist is not for you.


I know it is a complex game. Complex games can be defined in 2 ways.

1.) Lots of rules and bits but broken down the game is intuitive and with time, play is second nature and not a problem.

2. Overly complex meaning there are many rules and is non-intuitive. It becomes a chore to play as one feels like they are taking a test or learning a new language. Those games are not for me.

I can handle complex games if they are of the former definition.

This was basically my question. If the game is also dry as a bone and non-exciting then those are not for me no matter the complexity.
 
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Shane Larsen
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I would say The Gallerist is somewhere between 1 and 2, favoring 2 slightly. Based on everything you've said, I am more convinced it's not for you.
 
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Royce Calverley
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Oiler1 wrote:
thedacker wrote:
It's simple. You don't like complex games. The Gallerist is a complex game. The Gallerist is not for you.


I know it is a complex game. Complex games can be defined in 2 ways.

1.) Lots of rules and bits but broken down the game is intuitive and with time, play is second nature and not a problem.

2. Overly complex meaning there are many rules and is non-intuitive. It becomes a chore to play as one feels like they are taking a test or learning a new language. Those games are not for me.

I can handle complex games if they are of the former definition.

This was basically my question. If the game is also dry as a bone and non-exciting then those are not for me no matter the complexity.


I quite enjoy Gallerist, but I do not recommend that you get it.

In my opinion it is not intuitive at all. While the specific actions are thematically understandable, the actual steps that you take for each action is not intuitive or even very thematic.

In addition each action also has an accompanying executive action and a potential kick-out action.

The scoring is complicated and the reputation track, while it is a wonderful mechanic, also serves to add even more rules and complexity.

Given that the game is also quite expensive, this is definitely a try before you buy game.

Failing that, give Trajan a try, if you can handle Trajan you should be alright for Gallerist. They share a similar action tree choice though I find Trajan to be more intuitive than Gallerist (though much less thematic).

Hope that helps.
 
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Carl Enns
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This game is very exciting, intuitive and flows very well, once you've played it a couple of times. THe first time that I played it I had no idea where to start or what to do. It was very overwhelming but after a couple of plays I am much more familiar with it and find it very enjoyable. I wouldn't recommend this game for you. I would say that it is closer to 1 than 2 but at the beginning it is a 2.
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Alan Castree
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Although complex the mechanics feel like they meld perfectly with the theme. It's real easy for me to understand why things happen the way they do. I think Gallerist is a lot easier to pickup and Lerner than Kanban, but still can take some time to wrap your head around. Love the game so much, though!!!
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Oiler1 wrote:
thedacker wrote:
It's simple. You don't like complex games. The Gallerist is a complex game. The Gallerist is not for you.


I know it is a complex game. Complex games can be defined in 2 ways.

1.) Lots of rules and bits but broken down the game is intuitive and with time, play is second nature and not a problem.

2. Overly complex meaning there are many rules and is non-intuitive. It becomes a chore to play as one feels like they are taking a test or learning a new language. Those games are not for me.

I can handle complex games if they are of the former definition.

This was basically my question. If the game is also dry as a bone and non-exciting then those are not for me no matter the complexity.
Your two categories are the same. It's just that on a sliding scale of complexity, you bail out because you find that all the negative words that you use in (2) become applicable. The challenge is finding where on that sliding scale your bail out point is and where The Gallerist is relative to that. Perhaps if you tell us which games you have played that fall into the upper end of (1) and which fall into the lower end of (2) we could provide some more useful input.
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Donald M.
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mccrispy wrote:
Oiler1 wrote:
thedacker wrote:
It's simple. You don't like complex games. The Gallerist is a complex game. The Gallerist is not for you.


I know it is a complex game. Complex games can be defined in 2 ways.

1.) Lots of rules and bits but broken down the game is intuitive and with time, play is second nature and not a problem.

2. Overly complex meaning there are many rules and is non-intuitive. It becomes a chore to play as one feels like they are taking a test or learning a new language. Those games are not for me.

I can handle complex games if they are of the former definition.

This was basically my question. If the game is also dry as a bone and non-exciting then those are not for me no matter the complexity.
Your two categories are the same. It's just that on a sliding scale of complexity, you bail out because you find that all the negative words that you use in (2) become applicable. The challenge is finding where on that sliding scale your bail out point is and where The Gallerist is relative to that. Perhaps if you tell us which games you have played that fall into the upper end of (1) and which fall into the lower end of (2) we could provide some more useful input.


I have to make up my mind by the weekend.I like all good games but I've made the mistake of buying games because of the rating and hype and now they sit on my shelf like Robinson Crusoe and Twilight Struggle. I've played TS at a friends house and it was ok. The rules though many don't come in use all the time and I don't have to memorize them This is the type of complexity I can tolerate. I played Agricola and that was all right as someone taught me the rules. This type of complexity level up to a 3.2 rating maybe I can live with.

My favorite games are the ones I can get more people and more often to play with such as TTR, Carcasonnee, Lost Cities board game, Splendor, Pictomanis, Celestia lol. Being a gamer, I soon get tired of these less meaty games though and like the next step up ones now. I really don't have many "heavies".
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Oiler1 wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Oiler1 wrote:
thedacker wrote:
It's simple. You don't like complex games. The Gallerist is a complex game. The Gallerist is not for you.


I know it is a complex game. Complex games can be defined in 2 ways.

1.) Lots of rules and bits but broken down the game is intuitive and with time, play is second nature and not a problem.

2. Overly complex meaning there are many rules and is non-intuitive. It becomes a chore to play as one feels like they are taking a test or learning a new language. Those games are not for me.

I can handle complex games if they are of the former definition.

This was basically my question. If the game is also dry as a bone and non-exciting then those are not for me no matter the complexity.
Your two categories are the same. It's just that on a sliding scale of complexity, you bail out because you find that all the negative words that you use in (2) become applicable. The challenge is finding where on that sliding scale your bail out point is and where The Gallerist is relative to that. Perhaps if you tell us which games you have played that fall into the upper end of (1) and which fall into the lower end of (2) we could provide some more useful input.


I have to make up my mind by the weekend.I like all good games but I've made the mistake of buying games because of the rating and hype and now they sit on my shelf like Robinson Crusoe and Twilight Struggle. I've played TS at a friends house and it was ok. The rules though many don't come in use all the time and I don't have to memorize them This is the type of complexity I can tolerate. I played Agricola and that was all right as someone taught me the rules. This type of complexity level up to a 3.2 rating maybe I can live with.

My favorite games are the ones I can get more people and more often to play with such as TTR, Carcasonnee, Lost Cities board game, Splendor, Pictomanis, Celestia lol. Being a gamer, I soon get tired of these less meaty games though and like the next step up ones now. I really don't have many "heavies".
The Gallerist is a big step up from the games that you list as your favourites. Big. Step. If you can't get TI to the table, I get that - it's often a time thing for those "experience games". But if you can't get Robinson Crusoe to the table then you are absolutely gonna waste your money on The Gallerist.

I play games at the heavier end of the spectrum by preference, and while I don't consider The Gallerist to be super-heavy, it does take a bit of wrapping your head around to "find the flow" (something common to many of Vital Lacerda's games).

My advice, don't buy it, but please, please try to find somebody with a copy so you can try it out, it's an excellent game (as are all the Lacerda games that I've played).
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Y P
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Oiler1 wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Oiler1 wrote:
thedacker wrote:
It's simple. You don't like complex games. The Gallerist is a complex game. The Gallerist is not for you.


I know it is a complex game. Complex games can be defined in 2 ways.

1.) Lots of rules and bits but broken down the game is intuitive and with time, play is second nature and not a problem.

2. Overly complex meaning there are many rules and is non-intuitive. It becomes a chore to play as one feels like they are taking a test or learning a new language. Those games are not for me.

I can handle complex games if they are of the former definition.

This was basically my question. If the game is also dry as a bone and non-exciting then those are not for me no matter the complexity.
Your two categories are the same. It's just that on a sliding scale of complexity, you bail out because you find that all the negative words that you use in (2) become applicable. The challenge is finding where on that sliding scale your bail out point is and where The Gallerist is relative to that. Perhaps if you tell us which games you have played that fall into the upper end of (1) and which fall into the lower end of (2) we could provide some more useful input.


I have to make up my mind by the weekend.I like all good games but I've made the mistake of buying games because of the rating and hype and now they sit on my shelf like Robinson Crusoe and Twilight Struggle. I've played TS at a friends house and it was ok. The rules though many don't come in use all the time and I don't have to memorize them This is the type of complexity I can tolerate. I played Agricola and that was all right as someone taught me the rules. This type of complexity level up to a 3.2 rating maybe I can live with.

My favorite games are the ones I can get more people and more often to play with such as TTR, Carcasonnee, Lost Cities board game, Splendor, Pictomanis, Celestia lol. Being a gamer, I soon get tired of these less meaty games though and like the next step up ones now. I really don't have many "heavies".

It sounds like you need to find another play group instead of a game that can be both heavy and light. That's not being flippant--just an honest assessment of the situation.

The Gallerist is a wonderful game and a must-try for anybody who likes or even tolerates heavy Euros, but it doesn't sound like a good fit for your group.
 
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Donald M.
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MentatYP wrote:
You posted while I was typing my treatise, so I didn't see it before I posted. With the additional info you provided I recommend taking a look at these titles instead:

Alien Frontiers or Kingsburg - dice placement
Champions of Midgard - Viking themed worker placement with dice rolling for combat
Evolution - build your own creatures to eat those built by other players and avoid being eaten
Lanterns: The Harvest Festival - tile placement, easy rules
Nexus Ops (or Cry Havoc when it comes out) - classic Dudes on a Map
Paradox - time travel themed Euro with a Bejewelled mechanism for collecting resources
Viticulture: Essential Edition - one of the best light-mid worker placement games


Would you believe I got all these games except the last one. I tend to go wild buying games on sale or when I am in America and thus I have a lot I haven't played many yet. I stopped doing that now and don't want to get stuck with a heavy game that I may not like or find anyone to play with. I got a good deal but if I buy and hate the game, it's still a waste of money. I tend to like medium games with just enough depth to be fun and lower the luck factor.
 
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