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Subject: Forgotten Stars rss

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Ron Gamer
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We had a game last night where someone forgot to put their star for their last building out on the turn in which the last building was placed. So in the turn they did realize it, they completed two stars and then added this third (and final) star - "Ooops - I forgot" - which while an honest mistake, did end the game unexpectedly. It was an honest mistake, but it didn't feel right (everyone agreed), since there normally would not have been a way for them to deploy this building star during their turn and end the game.

Any thoughts on how this should be handled (if it's not already covered by some rule/clarification)? We're thinking of house ruling that if you forget a star, you can't place it on the same turn that would end the game. In this case, you would announce "forgot my star" on your turn, and then be able to place it on your next turn.
 
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Justin Parker
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If they forget it is their mistake (the group is not responsible for baby sittings everyone's player mats). I would play it that they could place the star on the start of their next turn.
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ParisianDreams
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In our group, someone usually notices it shortly after the person's turn has ended (not referring to Scythe, more so on forgetting to do something or "oops guys, can I change this) so they'd just add it during another player's turn in our group. We are pretty forgiving though and also will help out each other with moves on certain games.

In your case, bc Scythe pretty much ends within 3-4 rounds after the 3rd/4th star placement, I would have just let them place it as they did and then let everyone have 1 more turn since they did not have that 'turn' to prepare for the game ending if they'd known this person had 5 stars out versus placing them all in one turn.
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Jamey Stegmaier
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It's a tough situation, and I'd say this: If a player forgets to place a star and then remembers before it's their turn again, they can just place the star out of turn (that's consistent with another note in the rulebook about if you, say, forget to take the coins from a bottom-row action).

However, if it gets all the way around to your turn again, I like Justin's idea: That player can't just place the star. They should announce it, and at the beginning of their NEXT turn--before they do anything else--they must place the star.
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Chris Laudermilk
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What Jamey said. I think I may have run across that, but it wasn't a game-ending placement, so we just placed it and played on.
 
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Dave Moser
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jameystegmaier wrote:
They should announce it, and at the beginning of their NEXT turn--before they do anything else--they must place the star.


Sounds good. Maybe when announcing, place the star just below the corresponding achievements area so that anyone glancing at the stars during the intervening turns is aware/reminded of it. Then slide it up into the proper spot at the start of your turn. Obviously, it is removed and not counted if another player ends the game before then.
 
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Randal Divinski
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dmoser22 wrote:
jameystegmaier wrote:
They should announce it, and at the beginning of their NEXT turn--before they do anything else--they must place the star.

Obviously, it is removed and not counted if another player ends the game before then.

I would have thought the opposite? -- if the game ends before their turn, they get the star at the start of the scoring...
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C. Rexford
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If the star was the 'building' star, I do not see it as an 'unexpected' game end, since everyone can clearly see all four buildings on the board, knowing the star should be present, even if it's not. After all, it's a tracking system, not a game mechanism.

It may be rather sudden, but that is the way the game ends anyhow, so we would place the star, slap his wrist for forgetting and move on with the game...or not, since it ended.



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Ben Rubinstein

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So I read the title and was thinking "Forbidden Stars." I was so ready to come in here all angry shouting "No these games are nothing alike, stop pretending that these overreaching comparisons hold any merit or value."

Whoops.
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Ron Gamer
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Ok thanks - I think there are some good ideas in here consistent with our thinking.
 
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mfl134
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To me stars are just a tracking mechanism and a representation of the game state. The only one that isn't trackable by the game state is winning battles.

Placing stars can't be optional.

A person might really want to do something for a reason unrelated to getting a star (for example, winning a battle to grab resources). But getting this star would end the game, so I'll choose to not place it since I don't think I'm currently winning.

now the is ambiguity in whether somebody is forgetting to place a star or intentionally "forgetting". Or this gives other players varying incentives of whether or not somebody else should be reminded to place a star they are due.
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Niko
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mfl134 wrote:
To me stars are just a tracking mechanism and a representation of the game state. The only one that isn't trackable by the game state is winning battles.

Placing stars can't be optional.

A person might really want to do something for a reason unrelated to getting a star (for example, winning a battle to grab resources). But getting this star would end the game, so I'll choose to not place it since I don't think I'm currently winning.

now the is ambiguity in whether somebody is forgetting to place a star or intentionally "forgetting". Or this gives other players varying incentives of whether or not somebody else should be reminded to place a star they are due.
I agree, stars must be placed. The rules also support this.
If a player starts to intentionally "forget" placing stars I'd consider that cheating. If it's an honest mistake though then I don't see the issue as any other player could have pointed it out.
Sure, the acting player has a higher responsibility to update the game state in their turn, but IMO the other players have some as well.
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Ron Gamer
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This was not meant to be a question about cheating and how to address it, but a question about an honest mistake that affects the "end game timer". A player forgetting resources/money, etc can be easily rectified, but this is a situation that triggered an early game end.

I think we'll go with the house rule of not being able to place it until the turn after your announce it. If the game ends from someone else placing their last star, then this is simply a resource/coin etc that was forgotten, and the player can then add it to the board for final scoring.
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mfl134
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orlandoron wrote:
This was not meant to be a question about cheating and how to address it, but a question about an honest mistake that affects the "end game timer". A player forgetting resources/money, etc can be easily rectified, but this is a situation that triggered an early game end.

I think we'll go with the house rule of not being able to place it until the turn after your announce it. If the game ends from someone else placing their last star, then this is simply a resource/coin etc that was forgotten, and the play can then add it to the board for final scoring.


If it is a situation that should have triggered the end of the game, just reset the game to that position and count the score.

If you are saying it ended the game unexpectedly because you didn't expect a 3 star turn, everyone in the game reasonably should have seen it coming.
 
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Ron Gamer
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mfl134 wrote:

If you are saying it ended the game unexpectedly because you didn't expect a 3 star turn, everyone in the game reasonably should have seen it coming.


Why? I look at the board and see that they don't have a popularity star (and need 5 more popularity to get it), a power star (and need 6 more to get it), a people star (and need to take a produce action), a building star (and need to take building action to get it). I can reasonably look at the board and say that this person cannot end the game on their next turn because they can't make all that come together, so I'm going to do plan A (whereas maybe plan B would be my best move if I thought this could be my last turn).

In any event, let's just take another case in which they legally placed three stars on their turn but forget their fourth star which ends the game.
 
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Dave Moser
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mfl134 wrote:
To me stars are just a tracking mechanism and a representation of the game state. The only one that isn't trackable by the game state is winning battles.

Not true. Hitting the top of the power or popularity track are also not trackable once the player has moved back down on either track. Objective cards may be difficult to track depending on how/where people are holding their cards.
 
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Zoogi Heureka
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Personally i am with winterplum. It is all players fault not to recognize that a star had to be placed. They should correct it as soon as they notice it.
People should watch out on other players actions... it is not good for Scythe if the players play for themselves.
So if someone skips placing a star intentionally he is maybe unfair but i think the other players should get punished for ignoring the game situation...
 
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mfl134
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dmoser22 wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
To me stars are just a tracking mechanism and a representation of the game state. The only one that isn't trackable by the game state is winning battles.

Not true. Hitting the top of the power or popularity track are also not trackable once the player has moved back down on either track. Objective cards may be difficult to track depending on how/where people are holding their cards.


oh, right, thanks. good call, forgot about those.
 
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mfl134
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Zoogi wrote:
Personally i am with winterplum. It is all players fault not to recognize that a star had to be placed. They should correct it as soon as they notice it.
People should watch out on other players actions... it is not good for Scythe if the players play for themselves.
So if someone skips placing a star intentionally he is maybe unfair but i think the other players should get punished for ignoring the game situation...


I prefer that victories don't come at the expense of strictly bad mistakes like forgetting to take things that are earned.

why do you want to punish players?
 
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Zoogi Heureka
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I want to punish them for not keeping attention to the game.
Don't get me wrong: They shouldn't get punished physically or extreme... but it would be ok if they loose the game if they don't pay attention, imho.
 
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Steve T
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I like to keep track of where everybody is at... isn't that part of the game (& the fun)? Anyway, as for the OP's example, as soon as the player had built their last building & had ended their turn, I would have reminded them that they had forgot to place a star.
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mfl134
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Zoogi wrote:
I want to punish them for not keeping attention to the game.
Don't get me wrong: They shouldn't get punished physically or extreme... but it would be ok if they loose the game if they don't pay attention, imho.


I guess the situation is like something that comes up often in poker. 2 players show their hands. One says I have only a pair, the other says, I have nothing, when in reality they have a straight. I prefer that the cards dictate the hand winner and that evaluating which hand is greater is an objective evaluation independent of what people though they had.

I understand people like to play in a certain way, I just don't understand what is desirable about that experience. (With poker, there is money on the line, so I understand the desire more)
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Zoogi Heureka
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Apart from the objective cards in Scythe there is no hidden information.
Every player could evaluate the status of the game at everytime. (i don't think they should and i am a fan of 10 second rule)
Because i play the game together with my fellow players it is as much to me as to them to stick to the rules and to correct an error whoever it does.
So maybe i should not talk about punishing the other players if they didn't see that a star should have been placed but neither should the player which star was forgotten be punished? (it is even possible that another player is the one who benefits from the game ending and not the one with the forgotten star)

In poker you have hidden information. But i take it as soon as you reveal your cards and an error becomes apparent, it will get corrected immediately as well. Of course this can only happen if the players get the information. In Poker a possible problem, in Scythe not.

Anyway, i don't think it is necessary to have special rule that you have to announce forgotten stars. If people are really into this, then i would suggest a general rule that you can only end the game if you announced this the round before. But when it comes to me, i like Scythe's killer endings.
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mfl134
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Zoogi wrote:

In poker you have hidden information. But i take it as soon as you reveal your cards and an error becomes apparent, it will get corrected immediately as well. Of course this can only happen if the players get the information. In Poker a possible problem, in Scythe not.


and just note, in poker, i'm not trying to protect a player that folds a winning hand face down. I'm trying to protect when the cards are face up and everyone (except the player) knows they have the winning hand.
 
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mfl134
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separately, here is a reason to just let people add forgotten stars when the realized it:


if somebody made the mistake a bunch, they would change the way they play.

The turns would look like this:

- Take actions
- Check to see if you accomplished the 1st possible star
- Check to see if you accomplished the 2nd possible star
- Check to see if you accomplished the 3rd possible star
- ETC

so unless you are playing with a time, just let people add stars they have earned to keep the game moving quicker.
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