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galad2003 wrote:
Quote:
Prosecutors allege that Petty Officer First Class Kristian Saucier used a cellphone camera to take photos in the classified engine room of the nuclear submarine where he worked as a mechanic, the USS Alexandria, then destroyed a laptop, camera and memory card after learning he was under investigation.


http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/kristian-saucier-inves...

Note the double standard. This kid gets a felony charge where Clinton gets nothing.

Quote:
“I just don’t think it’s fair,” said Gene Pitcher, a retired Navy sailor who served with Saucier aboard the Alexandria. “In reality, what she did is so much worse than what Kris did. ... I think it’s just a blatant double standard.”

“Felony charges appear to be reserved for people of the lowest ranks. Everyone else who does it either doesn’t get charged or gets charged with a misdemeanor,” said Edward MacMahon, a Virginia defense attorney not involved in the Saucier case.


Keep in mind:

Quote:
However, the Navy says the photos are classified “confidential,” which is the lowest tier of protection for classified information and is designated for information that could cause some damage to national security but not “serious” or “exceptionally grave” damage.
Intelligence agencies claim that Clinton’s account contained 65 messages with information considered “Secret” and 22 classified at the “Top Secret” level. Some messages contained data under an even more restrictive “special access program” designation.


Also, he faces a felony when pictures of the maneuvering console of a submarine can be found easily online. I served aboard a nuclear submarine (actually the sub in this article many years ago)and this is what the control panel looks like.



http://www.americanhistory.si.edu/subs/operating/propulsion/...

While this sailors attempt to hide what he did wrong surely plays a factor, Hillary tried to hide her emails by hosting her own server (I know you say she didn't know it was wrong - send me a PM I have a bridge to sell you).

Anyway, I thought I would share this.



In other news, apples get sliced while oranges get peeled. Another double standard.
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I find both comparisons not worthy of persecution, and would find prison time for the Sailor unjustified.

It's not a double standard, it's an unjust standard on the part of the Navy and the UCMJ. Let's fix that.
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Rulesjd wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
Quote:
Prosecutors allege that Petty Officer First Class Kristian Saucier used a cellphone camera to take photos in the classified engine room of the nuclear submarine where he worked as a mechanic, the USS Alexandria, then destroyed a laptop, camera and memory card after learning he was under investigation.


http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/kristian-saucier-inves...

Note the double standard. This kid gets a felony charge where Clinton gets nothing.

Quote:
“I just don’t think it’s fair,” said Gene Pitcher, a retired Navy sailor who served with Saucier aboard the Alexandria. “In reality, what she did is so much worse than what Kris did. ... I think it’s just a blatant double standard.”

“Felony charges appear to be reserved for people of the lowest ranks. Everyone else who does it either doesn’t get charged or gets charged with a misdemeanor,” said Edward MacMahon, a Virginia defense attorney not involved in the Saucier case.


Keep in mind:

Quote:
However, the Navy says the photos are classified “confidential,” which is the lowest tier of protection for classified information and is designated for information that could cause some damage to national security but not “serious” or “exceptionally grave” damage.
Intelligence agencies claim that Clinton’s account contained 65 messages with information considered “Secret” and 22 classified at the “Top Secret” level. Some messages contained data under an even more restrictive “special access program” designation.


Also, he faces a felony when pictures of the maneuvering console of a submarine can be found easily online. I served aboard a nuclear submarine (actually the sub in this article many years ago)and this is what the control panel looks like.



http://www.americanhistory.si.edu/subs/operating/propulsion/...

While this sailors attempt to hide what he did wrong surely plays a factor, Hillary tried to hide her emails by hosting her own server (I know you say she didn't know it was wrong - send me a PM I have a bridge to sell you).

Anyway, I thought I would share this.



In other news, apples get sliced while oranges get peeled. Another double standard.


I peel my apples and slice my oranges.

What's your point?

Wait, wait, don't answer that. I already know.
 
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MWChapel wrote:
I find both comparisons not worthy of persecution, and would find prison time for the Sailor unjustified.

It's not a double standard, it's an unjust standard on the part of the Navy and the UCMJ. Let's fix that.


Normally I'd agree - certainly, civilians such as the Secretary of State are not under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ.

What the source article notes, though (and I haven't checked sources to confirm it's true), is that the sailor was NOT given a court martial under the UCMJ, but being tried in a civilian court.

Which is, indeed, odd.

(Still, as the article also points out - the exacerbating circumstances surrounded the extent the sailor immediately engaged in to destroy evidence and obstruct the investigation. That's not good. Never good for civilians. Double-plus-ungood for active military. STILL, all that said - this should have been a UCMJ issue, not civilian court.)
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Christopher Seguin
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MWChapel wrote:
I find both comparisons not worthy of persecution, and would find prison time for the Sailor unjustified.

It's not a double standard, it's an unjust standard on the part of the Navy and the UCMJ. Let's fix that.


I understand that you served (thank you very much for that - we have our political differences, but first and foremost you deserve credit and recognition for your service), and so your viewpoint is completely different than mine - and rightly so.

Regardless, I think the standards set by the Navy and the UCMJ are completely legit, and should be enforced.

The other part where we differ is that those same standards should be applied to ALL people. We shouldn't lower our standards because we don't like who may be caught in that standard's "net". If the standards scoop up the unintentional with the intentional, then so be it. But the standards are fine the way they are - they don't need dumbed down.
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chrisnd wrote:


The other part where we differ is that those same standards should be applied to ALL people. We shouldn't lower our standards because we don't like who may be caught in that standard's "net". If the standards scoop up the unintentional with the intentional, then so be it. But the standards are fine the way they are - they don't need dumbed down.


Yeah, well, we have 3 strikes laws in states that certainly didn't discriminated in their execution, BUT I certainly don't think the standard was "fine" the way it was. Now we have prisons full of petty criminals rotting for years and years with no real reasoning.

We certainly should change our standards, when the standards are unjust and unfair.

I would rather bring Clinton in the light of a flawed classification laws, than defend them in the light of persecution of a Sailor.
 
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XanderF wrote:


What the source article notes, though (and I haven't checked sources to confirm it's true), is that the sailor was NOT given a court martial under the UCMJ, but being tried in a civilian court.

Which is, indeed, odd.



Yeah, I have a hard time understanding(or believing) how an active duty sailor, during war time no less, would ever hit a federal court. Especially since the infraction happened on military property.

Something about this story is amiss.
 
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I thought standards were always different for active military.

For example
Adultery
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-adultery-a-crime-in-the-US-mili...

Another
Sleeping on the job
https://www.quora.com/What-punishment-would-a-modern-day-US-...

Sure there are many more.
 
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MWChapel wrote:
XanderF wrote:


What the source article notes, though (and I haven't checked sources to confirm it's true), is that the sailor was NOT given a court martial under the UCMJ, but being tried in a civilian court.

Which is, indeed, odd.



Yeah, I have a hard time understanding(or believing) how an active duty sailor, during war time no less, would ever hit a federal court. Especially since the infraction happened on military property.

Something about this story is amiss.


Just spitballing an idea...

As the article notes, maybe the goal was to include civilian defendants? That might not have happened, but only because it never went to trial - he pleaded guilty?

So...say the prosecutor approaches him with - 'I'm sure you've noticed this is a civilian court, and not military, and I bet you think that's pretty weird, right? Well it's because we believe your wife/girlfriend/family/etc helped you destroy that evidence, and if this goes to trial, we want to make sure to include all of them so that you can all spend plenty of years in jail together. ORRRR...you can just plead guilty on your own and we don't have to bother with a messy trial...'

About the only thing I could think of - no other reason makes any sense for why this isn't a UCMJ issue. He's active duty, now - was active duty at the time, espionage charge during time of war on military property...I mean, it's textbook UCMJ jurisdiction, otherwise.
 
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Les Marshall
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chrisnd wrote:




I peel my apples and slice my oranges.

What's your point?

Wait, wait, don't answer that. I already know.


Clearly you comprehend these are different things which is a great starting point. I see way too many good arguments from the right being glossed over with simplified conflation and labeling.

Context matters.
 
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Yeah, context matters.

Quote:
“The DOJ is willing to prosecute a former sailor to the full extent of the law for violating the law on classified material, in a situation where there was no purposeful unsecured transmission of classified material,” conservative blogger Ed Morrissey wrote last year. “Will they pursue Hillary Clinton and her team, at the other end of the power spectrum from the rank-and-file, for deliberate unsecured transmission of improperly marked classified nat-sec intelligence? Will they pursue the same kind of obstruction of justice charges for Hillary’s wiping of her server as they are for Saucier’s destruction of his laptop?”
 
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galad2003 wrote:

Also, he faces a felony when pictures of the maneuvering console of a submarine can be found easily online. I served aboard a nuclear submarine (actually the sub in this article many years ago)and this is what the control panel looks like.

Just speculation, but while a generic "maneuvering console" may be readily available, specific details shown in his photograph might be far less innocuous. For example, details in the photo about the gauges might indicate where the sub was currently deployed, or what tasks it was performing. The military tends to get a bit snippy about that sort of thing.
 
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Hillary Clinton: the Precedence of the United States.
 
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You will note the picture is the more minor of the potential felonies. Destroying his phone and computer are the bigger felonies. Obstruction of justice. That is where they got Hil if they were serious about it.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
You will note the picture is the more minor of the potential felonies. Destroying his phone and computer are the bigger felonies. Obstruction of justice. That is where they got Hil if they were serious about it.

Did Hillary destroy computers after learning she was under investigation?
 
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jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
You will note the picture is the more minor of the potential felonies. Destroying his phone and computer are the bigger felonies. Obstruction of justice. That is where they got Hil if they were serious about it.

Did Hillary destroy computers after learning she was under investigation?


Deleted the content.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
You will note the picture is the more minor of the potential felonies. Destroying his phone and computer are the bigger felonies. Obstruction of justice. That is where they got Hil if they were serious about it.

Did Hillary destroy computers after learning she was under investigation?


Deleted the content.

Before or after the investigation started?
 
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galad2003 wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
You will note the picture is the more minor of the potential felonies. Destroying his phone and computer are the bigger felonies. Obstruction of justice. That is where they got Hil if they were serious about it.

Did Hillary destroy computers after learning she was under investigation?


Deleted the content.

Before or after the investigation started?


I'm surprised they didn't get her for violation of the Freedom of Information act. That requires everyone to keep there emails for X amount of time.

There's a really big loophole there as only relevant emails have to be kept and she would get to determine what's a relevant email.

But I still honestly want to know: did people delete stuff after an investigation started?
 
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