$30.00
Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
40 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Runewars Miniatures Game» Forums » General

Subject: So, Anyone Want to Comment on the Movement Trays? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Chris Montgomery
United States
Joliet
Illinois
flag msg tools
Dear Geek: Please insert the wittiest comment you can think of in this text pop-up. Then times it by seven.
badge
The Coat of Arms of Clan Montgomery - Scotland. Yes, that's a woman with the head of a savage in her hand, and an anchor. No clue what it means, but it's cool.
mbmbmbmbmb
Just wanted to ask a question about my main reservation on this game.

From anyone who was able to demo the game at GenCon, it looks like the movement trays are pretty fiddly, the way they lock together. They seem like they would be a real problem when moving over hills and such, and in at least one demo, it looked like the entire unit had to be picked up to detach an empty tray. It concerns me that large formations (like a 12-tray undead unit, for instance) would be a real problem to maneuver, pick-up, and even detach emptry trays from.

What were others' experiences/thoughts?

It's really my only main reservation prior to preordering this game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Angus McEachran
Scotland
West Kilbride
North Ayrshire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The interlocking trays are an interesting choice. if they work well in their final production version they will provide cohesive looking masses of troops, and might speed up movement. If they are not done well they will be fiddly, with the potential for actually slowing down the game.

I think the game looks great so far, and will almost certainly be buying into it. If the trays don't work smoothly I will be trimming off the tabs.
It might even be better to move a single tray and then arrange the others around it. FFG have a good record for component quality so hopefully the tray design will be something they will refine before release.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Eddy
United States
Coeur d'Alene
ID
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
The trays make the game palatable for me. For some reason, I can't stand trays. Age of Sigmar is nice that way. You can set up really funky formations.

I think it's a strong idea. Based on some of the other mechanics, I've had my hopes grow for this since the initial, "Really?" announcement.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Martin
United States
Fort Leavenworth
Kansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I thought the trays where great, and the way they make up a key part of the mechanics (wider formations get multipliers to damage, while deeper formations get re-rolls) is really interesting. I liked them, but the demo was admittedly on level terrain, so I don't know what it will be like when you prop a 2x2 tray up on a hill. I did have to pull up my cavalry to remove one of the trays when the skeleton archers slaughtered them, but it wasn't a big deal, and they came apart easily enough when I picked them up.

Overall, I liked it, and am looking forward to picking up a box (or two...)
5 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Eddy
United States
Coeur d'Alene
ID
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Grim6 wrote:
I thought the trays where great, and the way they make up a key part of the mechanics (wider formations get multipliers to damage, while deeper formations get re-rolls) is really interesting. I liked them, but the demo was admittedly on level terrain, so I don't know what it will be like when you prop a 2x2 tray up on a hill. I did have to pull up my cavalry to remove one of the trays when the skeleton archers slaughtered them, but it wasn't a big deal, and they came apart easily enough when I picked them up.

Overall, I liked it, and am looking forward to picking up a box (or two...)


Ya. I wonder how sticky the rules will be about proximity. Do they have to be "attached" at all times?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miles Stevenson
United States
Arlington
Virginia
flag msg tools
I noticed that movement with the trays were a bit fiddly too. I think if you are using 3D modeled terrain it will continue to be fiddly, but FFG is going to provide 2D cardboard terrain elements in the box and it won't be a problem using that.

My main reservation is with the movement templates. I don't know how, but FFG and other publishers have been successfully convincing people that templates are less fiddly and more friendly to use than a measure tape. This just isn't true.

Maybe it's because there are a lot of board gamers out there who have never played a miniatures game with a measure tape before. But the main thing that keeps me from enjoying games like X-Wing more is when ships get clustered together in the middle of the table, you have to start carefully moving other ships out of the way just to put your movement template down. Moving units around starts to become very cumbersome and annoying compared to simply holding a measure tape in the air above the unit, and placing it down anywhere you want within range.

The only way I'll consider getting this game is if it looks like I can easily replace the template-based movement without much work. Otherwise, it's a no-go for me.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Martin
United States
Fort Leavenworth
Kansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think so, but from what I saw, the problem was more when you take them apart. Then again, after you've had them for a while, maybe it will be different story. They jigsaw puzzle together, so I don't think they will fall apart too easily though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Montgomery
United States
Joliet
Illinois
flag msg tools
Dear Geek: Please insert the wittiest comment you can think of in this text pop-up. Then times it by seven.
badge
The Coat of Arms of Clan Montgomery - Scotland. Yes, that's a woman with the head of a savage in her hand, and an anchor. No clue what it means, but it's cool.
mbmbmbmbmb
For the 2x2 and 2x3 sizes, I don't see it as an issue. But what if you make a gargantuan tray of Reanimates at a 3x4 and removing a tray gets stuck? You can't lift up the whole unit, I wouldn't think, like players did in the demos for the small units.

Or what if you have to prop it up on a hill feature?

It's one of the inherent problems to any "massed infantry" miniatures game, I'm just wondering how FFG's approach helps/hinders the gameplay. GW's Warhammer used large single-piece trays, lots of miniatures gamers use "bases" (the essential equivalent of a tray) with a few figures on each one, but each one has to be moved -- it allows more versatility in arrangement, but is a bit more fiddly to move across the table.

Still mulling -- but my initial impressions of the game are that it is worth a close look.

Considering the table space and size of the models, I am not sure that hills would even be a necessary feature. I also suspect that, like the asteroids in SW:Armada, FFG will supply cardboard tokens to represent terrain. But I would like to play with the much-more-visually-satisfying real thing, which I already have from other games.

Certainly anything remotely representing steep hills seem like a non-starter.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Montgomery
United States
Joliet
Illinois
flag msg tools
Dear Geek: Please insert the wittiest comment you can think of in this text pop-up. Then times it by seven.
badge
The Coat of Arms of Clan Montgomery - Scotland. Yes, that's a woman with the head of a savage in her hand, and an anchor. No clue what it means, but it's cool.
mbmbmbmbmb
warfinger wrote:
The only way I'll consider getting this game is if it looks like I can easily replace the template-based movement without much work. Otherwise, it's a no-go for me.


I don't think this will be easily replaced by a ruler because the templates not only govern distance, but also the radius of permitted movement (like X-Wing) -- that is, the faster the unit is moving, the wider the arc of the turn.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miles Stevenson
United States
Arlington
Virginia
flag msg tools
cmontgo2 wrote:
warfinger wrote:
The only way I'll consider getting this game is if it looks like I can easily replace the template-based movement without much work. Otherwise, it's a no-go for me.


I don't think this will be easily replaced by a ruler because the templates not only govern distance, but also the radius of permitted movement (like X-Wing) -- that is, the faster the unit is moving, the wider the arc of the turn.


You're probably right. You can model movement in arcs like that with a ruler (Firestorm Armada does it quite well), but I doubt it will be easy to do in this game.

It's a real shame, because I think everything else about the game system looks great. I also enjoy the Terrinoth setting despite being cookie-cutter.

But I have a whole heap of X-Wing models that never get used because as much as I like the game system, the templates drive me nuts.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Montgomery
United States
Joliet
Illinois
flag msg tools
Dear Geek: Please insert the wittiest comment you can think of in this text pop-up. Then times it by seven.
badge
The Coat of Arms of Clan Montgomery - Scotland. Yes, that's a woman with the head of a savage in her hand, and an anchor. No clue what it means, but it's cool.
mbmbmbmbmb
warfinger wrote:
cmontgo2 wrote:
warfinger wrote:
The only way I'll consider getting this game is if it looks like I can easily replace the template-based movement without much work. Otherwise, it's a no-go for me.


I don't think this will be easily replaced by a ruler because the templates not only govern distance, but also the radius of permitted movement (like X-Wing) -- that is, the faster the unit is moving, the wider the arc of the turn.


You're probably right. You can model movement in arcs like that with a ruler (Firestorm Armada does it quite well), but I doubt it will be easy to do in this game.

It's a real shame, because I think everything else about the game system looks great. I also enjoy the Terrinoth setting despite being cookie-cutter.

But I have a whole heap of X-Wing models that never get used because as much as I like the game system, the templates drive me nuts.


A difference between this and X-Wing, however, is that colliding with an enemy unit just results in engagement, not automatic damage -- no bouncing, and all that other stuff that applies in X-Wing. Which is to say, the templates don't really restrict movement, the position of other units on the board does. And once you're engaged, you don't have to worry about next turn and being required to move into the enemy *again*. In that respect, the templates seem to be a far-less critical problem for this game system.

From a physics perspective, though, it is kind of weird that the rules seem to force you to move the full distance you have put on the command dial . . . like, why can't I just stop at any point along the template? It's not like the unit has this inherent inertia that requires friction to slow down -- though you could argue a mass of moving troops does have some difficulty stopping once in motion, I guess.

The templates are certainly less of an issue in this game than the movement trays, for me. I just have this mental image of spilling a 3x4 tray (48 figures!) due to a stuck tray that I can dislodge, or trying to prop the interlocked mess onto a hill and causing an avalanche of figures.

It's probably less of a problem than I am thinking it is.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Boeren
United States
Marietta
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
They were using 3d printed prototype trays, so the real ones will probably work better with the locking/unlocking.

And, the game seems to be more intended for flat terrain. 3d stuff looks fancy, but as you noticed it has some issues. Don't use 3d terrain and it should work smoother.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Middleton
United States
Laramie
Wyoming
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If you are just planning on using flat terrain then why bother with minis at all?

6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Montgomery
United States
Joliet
Illinois
flag msg tools
Dear Geek: Please insert the wittiest comment you can think of in this text pop-up. Then times it by seven.
badge
The Coat of Arms of Clan Montgomery - Scotland. Yes, that's a woman with the head of a savage in her hand, and an anchor. No clue what it means, but it's cool.
mbmbmbmbmb
dboeren wrote:
They were using 3d printed prototype trays, so the real ones will probably work better with the locking/unlocking.

And, the game seems to be more intended for flat terrain. 3d stuff looks fancy, but as you noticed it has some issues. Don't use 3d terrain and it should work smoother.


But I plan to use 3D terrain. Tabletop mass-battle miniatures games of this type are as much about the 3D aesthetic and presentation as they are about the mechanics.

But, to be honest, I think it's only going to be an issue for really large units. The small unit sizes used in the demo didn't seem to be overly fiddly.

It was the thought of a unit 4X larger and all interlocked together that made me write the original OP. It would be so frustrating to have 30+ figures spill all over the table while trying to remove one of those trays, or trying to prop the interlocked mess onto an elevation. I expect that FFG will consider all this in its production decisions.

We'll see, I guess. Thanks for all the posts so far, everyone.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Middleton
United States
Laramie
Wyoming
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Large units in any game system, tray or not, are pretty fiddly.

These trays will work just like historic mini systems that base 4 minis to a tray. Almost all mass battle games work this way anymore, so it's not that big an issue.

The puzzle lock thing might be annoying but you can always just remove the minis themselves and leave the empty tray attached until you actually have to change the units formation.


The movement templates are dumb though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Movement trays are common in miniature wargaming, so it's not like FFG's trying something that hasn't been accepted by the miniature wargaming community. Movement trays depend on the ruleset:

Quote:
WarHammer Fantasy tends to play games with much less clutter on the board. More open space to move those larger blocks of infantry.

Many other games, including WarHammer 40k and Warmachine, are more a 'skirmish' type game, where squad cohesion is a more nebulous concern. As such, holding models in straight ranks is not required, so a movement tray would only get in the way. As these games often include much more terrain, it would also be far more difficult to move any squads via movement tray.


http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=116945
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Middleton
United States
Laramie
Wyoming
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Sam and Max wrote:
Movement trays are common in miniature wargaming, so it's not like FFG's trying something that hasn't been accepted by the miniature wargaming community. Movement trays depend on the ruleset:

Quote:
WarHammer Fantasy tends to play games with much less clutter on the board. More open space to move those larger blocks of infantry.

Many other games, including WarHammer 40k and Warmachine, are more a 'skirmish' type game, where squad cohesion is a more nebulous concern. As such, holding models in straight ranks is not required, so a movement tray would only get in the way. As these games often include much more terrain, it would also be far more difficult to move any squads via movement tray.


http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=116945


It's the trays puzzle locking together and how easy/hard they are to separate in play that people are talking about.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trent Y.
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The movement trays are the one reason why I will hesitate on this game. I really like what I see, overall. But I've never really liked movement trays, which is why I've often stayed away from fantasy games like this.

Time will tell.

Although it occurred to me that using magnets might work well. Strong enough to keep casually together but weak enough that you could pull them apart as needed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Outlaw
United Kingdom
Devizes
Wiltshire
flag msg tools
The Wing Warrior - learn more at www.facebook.com/thelegendriders
mbmbmbmbmb
This video told me everything I needed to know about the movement trays:



20.55 onwards shows difficulty moving a 2x2 unit.
27:23 onwards shows difficulty removing a tray from a 2x2 unit.

Guy was being extra careful with the pieces, which might account for some of it though.
1 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Boeren
United States
Marietta
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Anyone who's played regular tabletop minis games knows that 3d terrain such as hills cause trouble for ALL minis, whether they are in trays or not. You can take your pick - superior aesthetics or superior playability, as you see fit.

The difficulty in separating trays in the demos are know to have two causes:

1. Using 3d printed prototype trays instead of the real/final ones which should work better
2. Being extra super careful due to fragile prototype minis (also 3d printed instead of the final injection plastics) and fancy paint jobs

I would not expect the final trays to be difficult to separate.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Middleton
United States
Laramie
Wyoming
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Well if they are not a bit difficult to seperate then they will fall apart when moving the full unit like in the first clip.



These seem really pointless to me. Why not just a square, 4 figure base.

FFG loves gimmicky junk in their minis games. Like the range ruler thing in Armada.
1 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Outlaw
United Kingdom
Devizes
Wiltshire
flag msg tools
The Wing Warrior - learn more at www.facebook.com/thelegendriders
mbmbmbmbmb
DegenerateElite wrote:
Well if they are not a bit difficult to seperate then they will fall apart when moving the full unit like in the first clip.




Yeah. I mentioned this in another thread, it seems you walk a fine line: Make them clip together too well, and you won't be able to separate them easily. Make them clip together loosely, and you won't be able to move the units easily.

Unfortunately, the design of the game requires both: Removing trays is specifically part of the game.

And considering the trays are a selling point of the game, I would have expected them to spend time getting the prototypes for GenCon working as intended, so I'm dubious how much better the final ones are going to be.

I guess it's something we won't know until we see the final product. Which I probably never will (other than in a video).
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Montgomery
United States
Joliet
Illinois
flag msg tools
Dear Geek: Please insert the wittiest comment you can think of in this text pop-up. Then times it by seven.
badge
The Coat of Arms of Clan Montgomery - Scotland. Yes, that's a woman with the head of a savage in her hand, and an anchor. No clue what it means, but it's cool.
mbmbmbmbmb
Most minis games I have played with massed units are historicals . . . most of those games have bases with 2-4 figures "permanently" attached (i.e. glued) to a base (what FFG calls a "tray"), and the bases of 2-4 figures are moved individually, with markers for "dead" figures - caps or rings. This format works better I think for 3D terrain, allowing a single small tray to be inclined on hills

Depending on the problems encountered after a couple of plays (I'll see how the official components fare in actual use first), I may glue the figures to the base, cut off the hooks on the trays and use some marking method to denote dead units (such as small plastic rings or pencil eraser tips over the heads of "dead" models).

Another option, though more costly and time consuming to do, would be using some 2mm rare earth magnets to attach the models to the trays, avoiding the spilling problem all together and allowing the game components to be used as intended with no legitimate danger of the models spilling all over the place, even if you turned the trays upside down, never mind an incline.

The video notations above by RedMonkeyBoy illustrate exactly what prompted my OP -- that's the exact demo I watched and started to wonder about potential problems with larger units.

To be fair, these are all considerations that any mass-figure miniatures game has, as David Boren correctly points out, and probably shouldn't be a reason to shy away from this game simply because of that.

I think I'm sufficiently satisfied that I should give this game a try.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mr. Bistro
United States
Richmond
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Tiered hills, with each tier being the length/width of a tray should mitigate the problem.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Middleton
United States
Laramie
Wyoming
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It's not really hills that are the issue.

It is apparently just picking up and moving the unit, unless you play on a slick surface that you can just slide it on.

All of my game terrain mats are either heavy felt or rubber mouse pad stuff, and you can't just slide minis on them.

I'm pretty sure the mini attach to little posts with their hole on each base. The minis coming off probably isn't an issue.

If it comes to separating the bases, then re-basing would be the answer. I can't imagine chopping the tabs off would work well without leaving holes in the edge.


That said, I have to read the rules before I even consider this game. It likely is too rigid in structure anyways.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.