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Subject: Hate Preacher Jailed in the UK rss

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Daniel Edwards
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So probably Britain's most notorious hate preacher has been convicted of inviting support for a proscribed group (ISIS) and faces ten years in prison.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/16/anjem-chouda...

Unquestionably the government / police have been after him for years but likely thought they couldn't make serious charges stick given that the conduct here is mere speech, much in the form of videos posted on youtube and other sites.

Mainstream legal reporting is always a bit questionable but there does seem something to the assertion that it was Choudary's online swearing of allegiance to ISIS which is what crossed the line from hate speech (certainly actionable in the UK but not something that is going to lead to substantial jail time) and support for terrorism (which does).

Presumably, equivalent conduct in the US would be protected under the First Amendment but maybe MGK or someone else could weigh in on that.

Where and how he does his time will be a big issue. It's an incredibly poorly kept secret that there really aren't many high security prisons in the UK that can keep prisoners like Choudary and they are already quite full of prisoners in on similar offenses. Choudary is so high profile that allowing him to attempt to radicalise other prisoners would be a massive problem for the government.
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jeremy cobert
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myopia wrote:
Presumably, equivalent conduct in the US would be protected under the First Amendment but maybe MGK or someone else could weigh in on that.


The UK subjects do not have any right to free speech so I wonder why it took them so long to run him in.
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jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
Presumably, equivalent conduct in the US would be protected under the First Amendment but maybe MGK or someone else could weigh in on that.


The UK subjects do not have any right to free speech so I wonder why it took them so long to run him in.
Because we have certain laws (not rights, but laws) saying you cannot be jailed unless you commit a crime (and what is a crime is also laid out in these things we call laws).
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jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
Presumably, equivalent conduct in the US would be protected under the First Amendment but maybe MGK or someone else could weigh in on that.


The UK subjects do not have any right to free speech so I wonder why it took them so long to run him in.


That is where you are wrong.

Article 10 of the ECHR - Freedom of Expression.

However we (as in Europe) accept that the exercise of that freedom carries with it duties and responsibilities and may be subject to certain laws.
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jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
Presumably, equivalent conduct in the US would be protected under the First Amendment but maybe MGK or someone else could weigh in on that.


The UK subjects do not have any right to free speech so I wonder why it took them so long to run him in.

For the millionth time we are citizens and not subjects. We have the rule of law here you know. You have sent people to Guantanamo for less you know.
Have you ever been here? You should try it some time.
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Daniel Edwards
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jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
Presumably, equivalent conduct in the US would be protected under the First Amendment but maybe MGK or someone else could weigh in on that.


The UK subjects do not have any right to free speech so I wonder why it took them so long to run him in.


Many, many countries have freedom of speech laws / rights without constitutional freedom of speech rights.

You don't need to be a lawyer to appreciate they are both rights, the practical difference is how hard they are to proscribe.

In any event I think it's interesting that the same conduct probably can't be prosecuted in the US.
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myopia wrote:
In any event I think it's interesting that the same conduct probably can't be prosecuted in the US.
We have it set up so that hate speech is actually a punishment multiplier if you commit a crime based on that speech or using that speech during the commission of a crime against the subjects of the hate. Actually sitting in your basement and posting "I hate Jews" on some revisionist history board that collects people with single digit IQs as users is not considered a crime. Spray painting swastikas on jewish grave markers is.
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TheChin! wrote:
myopia wrote:
In any event I think it's interesting that the same conduct probably can't be prosecuted in the US.
We have it set up so that hate speech is actually a punishment multiplier if you commit a crime based on that speech or using that speech during the commission of a crime against the subjects of the hate. Actually sitting in your basement and posting "I hate Jews" on some revisionist history board that collects people with single digit IQs as users is not considered a crime. Spray painting swastikas on jewish grave markers is.
Hold on no one has posted "I hate Jews" here for ages.
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myopia wrote:
Many, many countries have freedom of speech laws / rights without constitutional freedom of speech rights.


Not really, they tell you that you have it, but you dont, not the UK that's for certain. Britain as a constitution does not have the right to free speech. For example on the matter of race and religion if you say anything derogatory you can and will be arrested. Even in the USA the KKK have the right to speak freely. In the UK ,You subjects can be locked up for race hate speech, such as calling some one the "n" word. It is a common misconception that people have free speech, but you don't.


For example, this guy is a shitbag who would not get locked up under a free speech case in the USA.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3733212/You-bit-c-Ju...
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jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
Many, many countries have freedom of speech laws / rights without constitutional freedom of speech rights.


Not really, they tell you that you have it, but you dont, not the UK that's for certain. Britain as a constitution does not have the right to free speech. For example on the matter of race and religion if you say anything derogatory you can and will be arrested. Even in the USA the KKK have the right to speak freely. In the UK ,You subjects can be locked up for race hate speech, such as calling some one the "n" word. It is a common misconception that people have free speech, but you don't.


For example, this guy is a shitbag who would not get locked up under a free speech case in the USA.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3733212/You-bit-c-Ju...
He was locked up for breaching a court order.

You need to go back and find out what he was given the Asbo for.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-kentucky-judge...
 
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jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
Many, many countries have freedom of speech laws / rights without constitutional freedom of speech rights.


Not really, they tell you that you have it, but you dont, not the UK that's for certain. Britain as a constitution does not have the right to free speech. For example on the matter of race and religion if you say anything derogatory you can and will be arrested. Even in the USA the KKK have the right to speak freely. In the UK ,You subjects can be locked up for race hate speech, such as calling some one the "n" word. It is a common misconception that people have free speech, but you don't.


For example, this guy is a shitbag who would not get locked up under a free speech case in the USA.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3733212/You-bit-c-Ju...

He was actually jailed for breaching an anti-social behaviour order (ASBO), which I think is on the limits of what is tolerable in a law.
You also do not have absolute free speech. Try threatening the president or indeed insulting a judge and see what happens. But yes we don't allow some things you do.
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jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
Many, many countries have freedom of speech laws / rights without constitutional freedom of speech rights.


Not really, they tell you that you have it, but you dont, not the UK that's for certain. Britain as a constitution does not have the right to free speech. For example on the matter of race and religion if you say anything derogatory you can and will be arrested. Even in the USA the KKK have the right to speak freely. In the UK ,You subjects can be locked up for race hate speech, such as calling some one the "n" word. It is a common misconception that people have free speech, but you don't.


For example, this guy is a shitbag who would not get locked up under a free speech case in the USA.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3733212/You-bit-c-Ju...


This is probably mind blowing but the UK doesn't have a constitution in the sense you mean it period.
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DavidDearlove wrote:
Try threatening the president or indeed insulting a judge and see what happens.


This happens all the time and people don't go to jail for it unless its determined as a "credible threat".



or these gems



DavidDearlove wrote:
But yes we don't allow some things you do.


Yeah, like free speech.

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myopia wrote:
This is probably mind blowing but the UK doesn't have a constitution in the sense you mean it period.


You just went full Slater with that comment. I said Britain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kin...
 
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jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
This is probably mind blowing but the UK doesn't have a constitution in the sense you mean it period.


You just went full Slater with that comment. I said Britain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kin...
http://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/britains-unwritten-con...
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TheChin! wrote:
myopia wrote:
In any event I think it's interesting that the same conduct probably can't be prosecuted in the US.
We have it set up so that hate speech is actually a punishment multiplier if you commit a crime based on that speech or using that speech during the commission of a crime against the subjects of the hate. Actually sitting in your basement and posting "I hate Jews" on some revisionist history board that collects people with single digit IQs as users is not considered a crime. Spray painting swastikas on jewish grave markers is.


That's an interesting way to partly get around things. You don't strictly criminalise the speech, just add extra punishment to connected conduct.

Still the guy who incites someone else's conduct through hate speech likely stays protected.
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Daniel Edwards
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jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
This is probably mind blowing but the UK doesn't have a constitution in the sense you mean it period.


You just went full Slater with that comment. I said Britain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kin...


Read my post again.
 
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myopia wrote:

Still the guy who incites someone else's conduct through hate speech likely stays protected.

Incitement to a crime is a crime in England (and, I think, the rest of the UK)
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jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
This is probably mind blowing but the UK doesn't have a constitution in the sense you mean it period.


You just went full Slater with that comment. I said Britain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kin...


Great Britain is a subset of the UK, so the UK includes Britain.
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mutton_chops wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
This is probably mind blowing but the UK doesn't have a constitution in the sense you mean it period.


You just went full Slater with that comment. I said Britain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kin...


Great Britain is a subset of the UK, so the UK includes Britain.
I linked the fact he said "Britain" yet linked to a page about the UK.
 
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I can think of few less fruitful activities than trying to argue UK law with Corbert.

andyholt wrote:
myopia wrote:

Still the guy who incites someone else's conduct through hate speech likely stays protected.

Incitement to a crime is a crime in England (and, I think, the rest of the UK)


Well if I tell my friend to go kill my neighbor and he does then I'm in trouble.

If I set up a youtube channel devoted to the idea that we should execute gay people and someone listens to it and does then I may be guilty of hate speech but probably not incitement.

Both cases in the UK.
 
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DavidDearlove wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
Presumably, equivalent conduct in the US would be protected under the First Amendment but maybe MGK or someone else could weigh in on that.


The UK subjects do not have any right to free speech so I wonder why it took them so long to run him in.

For the millionth time we are citizens and not subjects. We have the rule of law here you know. You have sent people to Guantanamo for less you know.
Have you ever been here? You should try it some time.

Serfs! HA HA
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myopia wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
Many, many countries have freedom of speech laws / rights without constitutional freedom of speech rights.


Not really, they tell you that you have it, but you dont, not the UK that's for certain. Britain as a constitution does not have the right to free speech. For example on the matter of race and religion if you say anything derogatory you can and will be arrested. Even in the USA the KKK have the right to speak freely. In the UK ,You subjects can be locked up for race hate speech, such as calling some one the "n" word. It is a common misconception that people have free speech, but you don't.


For example, this guy is a shitbag who would not get locked up under a free speech case in the USA.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3733212/You-bit-c-Ju...


This is probably mind blowing but the UK doesn't have a constitution in the sense you mean it period.


The UK has a constitution. It's there in the term used for our form of government: constitutional monarchy.

What it doesn't have is one document that wraps it all up. It's piecemeal, divided over documents some of which are older than the USA, but much of which is newer. For example we have a maximum Parliamentary term of five years. Relatively recently the rules allowing the Prime Minister to choose a shorter time were changed. (It's still possible, it just takes more than that.) That changed the constitution. But it didn't have special processes attached to it. (Increasing the term beyond five years would.)
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mutton_chops wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
myopia wrote:
This is probably mind blowing but the UK doesn't have a constitution in the sense you mean it period.


You just went full Slater with that comment. I said Britain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kin...


Great Britain is a subset of the UK, so the UK includes Britain.


In fact Britain is almost all of the UK.

And when it comes to adjectives, the adjective meaning "from the UK" is British. And since the Olympics are on you may have noticed the UK's sportspeople doing rather well. The country code next to their names will have been GB or GBR. But that means the whole of the UK.

(Internet domains we use .uk because the academics who set that up thought that more logical. But the domain .gb is also reserved for the UK.)

Understanding this stuff is a full time job, unless you're just permanently embedded in it.
 
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myopia wrote:
Well if I tell my friend to go kill my neighbor and he does then I'm in trouble.


A credible threat of violence, or something stupid like "these fucking neighbors next door are playing their shitty music all night, I want kill them".

Will that get you in trouble with the police ? Probably, especially if they are ethnic or gay.


What if you say something like "African migrants trying to get into Europe as "cockroaches."

That could be trouble with the law.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/katie-hopkins-and-t...

also compare our westboro church idiots to your idiots

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-19883828

Sorry , but you surf's dont have free speech.
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