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Subject: Are control tokens lost immediately when a region becomes a battle region? rss

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Thomas Leitner
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When a controlled region with the controlling faction's figures is invaded by another faction, the region becomes a battle region. Is, then, the controlling faction's control marker immediately removed?

This has potential implications for the human's scoring ability and also the machines ability to move buildings, especially bunkers, into controlled regions.
 
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Jason Preder
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MDJD wrote:
When a controlled region with the controlling faction's figures is invaded by another faction, the region becomes a battle region. Is, then, the controlling faction's control marker immediately removed?

This has potential implications for the human's scoring ability and also the machines ability to move buildings, especially bunkers, into controlled regions.


I had assumed the Control Markers do not change until after battle is resolved at the end of the round. I'm sure we'll have an answer soon enough, but I truly do understand what you are questioning.
 
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Lucas Hedgren
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In the example battle on page 10, the control marker is there along with the battle token.

Also, I'd have to say this falls into the old "do what the rules say to do, not what they don't say to do" realm. The rules never say to remove the control marker when an opponent moves in.
 
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Grant Rodiek
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Update: I shouldn't respond to rules threads at 6:30 am.

Removing this answer as it's causing trouble.

Sorry for the confusion.
 
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Lucas Hedgren
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HerrohGrant wrote:
Hi,

Control = One faction is present. The twist here is occupation, which means Minis explicitly.

...

If two factions are present, you have a battle, which means no control.

You cannot Move a Bunker into a battle region.


Whoa, wait a minute:

The Rules wrote:
Control: A Region is considered controlled by the player who has a Control token there.


Nothing about minis there.

So, Humans do not score for Battle regions when using Occupation? That's huge.
 
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Patrick
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boomtron wrote:
HerrohGrant wrote:
Hi,

Control = One faction is present. The twist here is occupation, which means Minis explicitly.

...

If two factions are present, you have a battle, which means no control.

You cannot Move a Bunker into a battle region.


Whoa, wait a minute:

The Rules wrote:
Control: A Region is considered controlled by the player who has a Control token there.


Nothing about minis there.

So, Humans do not score for Battle regions when using Occupation? That's huge.


Agreed. Definitely been playing this wrong if that is the case. Makes humans a bit more manageable.
 
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Lucas Hedgren
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Also, this would make Bunker impossible to use. Bunker does things only while in a region with a Battle token, but since Battle regions are never controlled, it can never be used.

This is getting weird.
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James Mathias
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I don't see how control is lost when a battle has been started.

A battle region is treated differently for certain game effects.

If I have a control marker in a region, and no minis. An enemy moves in, and gains control.

If I have a control marker in a region, and some minis. An enemy moves in, and starts a battle, control does not change hands until the first objective of the battle is resolved. So for all intents and purposes the controlling player (me), continues to "control" that region.

If this is not the case, it is not clear in the rulebook, and as the poster above said it makes Bunker useless.
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Lucas Hedgren
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Almost all games of this complexity have ambiguities. We work it out. No big deal.

The frustrating part here is that there is no ambiguity. No one thought to question what Control was because the rules have a KEY TERMS section that DEFINES the term Control. It is very clear. You need a Control marker. That's it. And the example of a battle on page 10 very clearly shows a Control marker.

And then we hear otherwise.
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Charlie Theel
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Grant may be incorrect. It happens. Especially when you're performing your day job, juggling a game company with a couple new releases, and trying to respond to all these threads. I'd give the guy a break and try to be a little more friendly and understanding.
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Lucas Hedgren
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That's fair, Charlie. Didn't mean to sound like I was piling on. If so, apologies.

I just want to play this awesome, fun game he designed the correct way.
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Grant Rodiek
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I answered at the gym before work via my phone. I debated doing so because these terms are simple, but have complex interpretations due to the content. I should have waited until I had a keyboard to answer at great length, but frankly I'm getting antsy about keeping people waiting. I'm at work now, I have an all day meeting.

I will try to answer this more precisely later tonight. I'm sorry there is confusion.
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Remus Rhymus
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Grant, IMHO you're doing a stellar job interacting on these forums. You're very responsive. I wouldn't worry too much about an angry mob of geeks ready to crucify you because you didn't reply within a couple hours. I think most of us are patient and prefer a thoughtful reply at your convenience over a quick reply that may need further clarification.
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Patrick
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remus wrote:
Grant, IMHO you're doing a stellar job interacting on these forums. You're very responsive. I wouldn't worry too much about an angry mob of geeks ready to crucify you because you didn't reply within a couple hours. I think most of us are patient and prefer a thoughtful reply at your convenience over a quick reply that may need further clarification.


I'll second this.
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Christopher Holland
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Our group had some back and forth with this, and decided that once there was a battle, control tokens were removed. That seems to be what you are saying here.

In our case, there was a Human control token placed in a region by their abilities. There was also a Trog War Party token in the region. If the Pilgrim Army ends in that region, neither the Humans nor the Pilgrims would have control of that region. The Human control token is removed. If the Pilgrims lose the battle, it would then be uncontrolled. Is that correct?

We have been loving the game in our first few plays. The forums have been very helpful in clarifying any points of contention we had!
 
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Christopher Holland
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Or would the original control token remain until the end of the battle, even though in either outcome, Yellow would be removed at the end of the battle? Before the battle, the Humans would NOT be able to get a point for that region using the "Occupation" ability, because Battle != control.
 
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Patrick
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holland515 wrote:
Or would the original control token remain until the end of the battle, even though in either outcome, Yellow would be removed at the end of the battle? Before the battle, the Humans would NOT be able to get a point for that region using the "Occupation" ability, because Battle != control.


I think the issue with this is that the bunker building the machines have requires being in a battlefield to be used. If you can't control a battlefield then you can't use the building which defeats the purpose. So I'm pretty sure the defender retains control until the battle resolves.
 
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Grant Rodiek
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Blackspy07 wrote:
holland515 wrote:
Or would the original control token remain until the end of the battle, even though in either outcome, Yellow would be removed at the end of the battle? Before the battle, the Humans would NOT be able to get a point for that region using the "Occupation" ability, because Battle != control.


I think the issue with this is that the bunker building the machines have requires being in a battlefield to be used. If you can't control a battlefield then you can't use the building which defeats the purpose. So I'm pretty sure the defender retains control until the battle resolves.


The bunker explicitly states you can use it in a battlefield.

Remember: if it explicitly states it breaks the rule, you can do it.

Shred Drone explicitly states you can attack a unit in a battle region. Orbital Sniper does not.

Trog Traps explicitly state you can activate even if you do not control the region. Artillery does not.

The Pilgrims have a Structure (and I'm having a brain fart) that explicitly states you can move Units into an adjacent Battle Region.

So, the general rule holds, unless a card explicitly states otherwise.

To use the Bunker, leave 1 Unit behind. If he is attacked, you have a battle, and according to the Structure, you may activate it using an Action to add Units to the Battle Region.
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Lucas Hedgren
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1. Is the Key Terms section regarding "Control" incomplete/incorrect? Or are the Battle/Movement rules incomplete in that they should say that the Control marker should be removed when a battle is started?

2. Can you confirm that Humans do not score for Battle regions when using Occupation?

3. If the Machines attack a region controlled by another faction, but that includes a Bunker, can the Bunker then be used, since who controls the region ceases to matter?

4. Can the Machines use a Bunker when two other factions are Battling in a region?
 
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Thomas Leitner
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HerrohGrant wrote:
Blackspy07 wrote:
holland515 wrote:
Or would the original control token remain until the end of the battle, even though in either outcome, Yellow would be removed at the end of the battle? Before the battle, the Humans would NOT be able to get a point for that region using the "Occupation" ability, because Battle != control.


I think the issue with this is that the bunker building the machines have requires being in a battlefield to be used. If you can't control a battlefield then you can't use the building which defeats the purpose. So I'm pretty sure the defender retains control until the battle resolves.


The bunker explicitly states you can use it in a battlefield.

Remember: if it explicitly states it breaks the rule, you can do it.

Shred Drone explicitly states you can attack a unit in a battle region. Orbital Sniper does not.

Trog Traps explicitly state you can activate even if you do not control the region. Artillery does not.

The Pilgrims have a Structure (and I'm having a brain fart) that explicitly states you can move Units into an adjacent Battle Region.

So, the general rule holds, unless a card explicitly states otherwise.

To use the Bunker, leave 1 Unit behind. If he is attacked, you have a battle, and according to the Structure, you may activate it using an Action to add Units to the Battle Region.


What you say makes perfect sense, but still leaves the poor Machines with a significant problem. They have a total of ten figures. I have to leave one behind to get any use out my bunker, which requires me to leave two more figures behind in my reserve.

As the Machines only mechanism for scoring is to take regions, AND to have scoring enabled, this just seems to always leave them with too few actions and too few figures on the board.

Add to that the issue that if the Machines are earlier in the turn order than anyone attacking their region on the third action, their bunker is worse than useless as it can't be activated anymore before battle.

Even if they get a chance to use the bunker, they have to devote an entire action to playing wrenches just as reaction to what another faction is doing.

By way of comparison, the humans can dump tokens into regions in anticipation of battle, which is far more effective (as far as I can tell) than the Machine's battle deterrent.

Without getting points for killing with buildings (sniper and shredder) and without the ability to move bunkers into a battle region they control, the Machines seem fairly impotent.

Obviously, I could be missing something, but they just don't seem to stack up well to their competition.
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Dustin Boatman
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Any final answer on this control question? I played my first game last night and loved it but within 30 minutes of playing the human player played the occupation card and immediately asked if he scored battle regions where he had previously placed a human control token. I quickly checked this thread and didnt really see a definitive answer. The game was won by the trog player, but by about 6-10 points, so the answer to this question could have changed the outcome. Thanks!
 
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Christopher Holland
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boomtron wrote:
1. Is the Key Terms section regarding "Control" incomplete/incorrect? Or are the Battle/Movement rules incomplete in that they should say that the Control marker should be removed when a battle is started?

2. Can you confirm that Humans do not score for Battle regions when using Occupation?

3. If the Machines attack a region controlled by another faction, but that includes a Bunker, can the Bunker then be used, since who controls the region ceases to matter?

4. Can the Machines use a Bunker when two other factions are Battling in a region?


Based on what I have read, I think the answers to your questions are as follows:

1. The control marker is NOT removed until battle is resolved. However, the controller can not use any abilities in the controlled region unless explicitly stated. i.e. The Bunker

2. Humans would not be able to score a Battle region using Occupation.

3. I believe control still matters in the case of the Machines. So they would have to control the region to use Bunker. I think you always need a control marker to activate a structure. Bunker is really a defensive ability.

4. No, same as 3. Unless somehow their control marker is present and they have control, which I don't see how that could happen with the current abilities of the Machines. But in which case, there are rules for having a 3rd party in a battle. But I think those rules primarily relate to the Artillery and Watchtower tokens of the Humans.

I am curious to see of others agree with my interpretation. This is something we definitely had questions on in the beginning.

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Sergio Perez
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holland515 wrote:

I am curious to see of others agree with my interpretation. This is something we definitely had questions on in the beginning.


I applaud your effort, but I believe your answers are predicated upon 1) the notion that control of a region is lost immediately when it becomes a battle region and 2) additional rules you had to create in order to rectify problems created by idea #1.

While Grant initially offered an answer to support the idea that control of a region is lost when it becomes a battle region (i.e. before battle resolution), his decision to rescind that answer hints that it may be incorrect. I hope he does reverse course on his initial ruling. Here's why:

1) I'm unsure why the question even came up. The answer seems obvious based upon the rules as written (RAW). The rulebook defines what control of a region is, and it delineates the circumstances under which control of a region is lost or changed. Nowhere in the rulebook is there an indication that control of a region is lost immediately upon the region becoming a battle region, nor is the idea implied. There really doesn't seem to be any ambiguity regarding the matter.

2) The addition of a new rule (control of a region is immediately lost when it becomes a battle region) creates a domino effect that leads to further confusion. Lucas's question regarding what happens if a bunker exists in a region that becomes a battle region occupied by two other opponent factions illustrates that dilemma quite well. You seemingly came to your conclusions to his questions #3 and 4 by creating even more (nonexistent) rules.

If what Grant initially ruled is true, then the answers to Lucas's questions #3 and 4 are yes and yes unless additional rules are added. In Grant's post above (the one he didn't remove), he indicated that a bunker can be activated in a battle region because it states it explicitly breaks the rule [regarding the need for control of a region in order for a structure within it to be activated - as indicated by the post he quoted].

I think Grant's answer is flawed because it's based upon a faulty premise. I do not believe control of a region is lost immediately upon the region becoming a battle region. The general restrictions related to structure activation are that the structure must be in a region controlled by the player activating it, and it must not be in a battle region. My interpretation of the bunker ability is that it does break a rule, but not the rule regarding control of the region as Grant seemed to imply. It breaks the rule regarding the inability to activate a structure within a battle region. If, as I contend and the rulebook supports, control of a region is not lost immediately upon a region becoming a battle region, the answer as to when a bunker may be activated is considerably less convoluted, and the answers to Lucas's questions #3 and 4 are very obviously no and no.

Lastly, I truly appreciate Grant's eagerness to engage with us regularly, and I hope that my answers are in no way interpreted as disrespectful (I mean, who am I to argue with a designer regarding rules to his own game?!?!). He's one of the most passionate and energetic designers I have ever seen, and I look forward to supporting his future endeavors. I just find it a bit unnerving when RAW and RAI deviate so significantly, so I'm really interested in seeing what Grant comes up with for a final response to this question. Until then, for me at least, the jury is out, and I'll continue playing by RAW.
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Dustin Boatman
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*sigh* I am about to play another game of this tomorrow, I hope we can get a definitive answer by then. Seems like a simple question. Do you lose control when an area is contested? Can the humans score for every region that has a token despite if there is a battle? Seems like thematically they should have called a battle region "contested" until resolution of the battle step, it would have been easier to explain and understand.
 
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Peter Mulholland
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Peter from the unofficial FAQ here. Hopefully we can get a solid answer soon so then I can add it in and repost it.

In the meantime could someone post photos of the relevant cards (bunker etc) as I don't have a copy of the game yet and it makes it harder to follow what's going on.

Thanks!
 
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