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Subject: Multi Nation Force and Supply Sharing rss

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Chad Ridgley
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I just need a little clarification on the rules for supply and multi nation forces.

If not supply sharing, Does each nation within a multi-nation force need to be able to trace supply for their SPs to their own nation's supply source or does the entire force trace to the nationality that is determined by the nation with the largest SPs? It seems per rule 9.2 that supply sources are normally only for their nation's forces. For example Would a multi-nation Austrian force composed of 7 Austrian SPs, 6 Imperial SPs, and 2 Saxon SPs that could only trace supply to an Austrian supply source be considered out of supply (and it is not in a local fortress supply space either) due to the other 2 nations SPs that can't trace supply?

I imagine the only way they could be in supply is if they were in a local fortress

Thanks
 
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Rex Stites
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I think in your example, the force could trace to an Austrian supply source, and only an Austrian supply source. (ignoring fortress local supply for the moment).

Rule 4.1.1 governing Multi-Nation Forces states:


Quote:
A force may include Line Infantry SPs, units, and leaders from more than one nation, but may incur penalties thereby [12.2]. Its nationality is determined by the nation with the most SPs (or its Commander if equal) for all purposes. Multi-nation forces must initially be formed with a leader of the same nationality of the majority nationality SPs in the force. (Emphasis added.)


The way I read the rule is that the force you describe is "Austrian," and as such, it traces to an Austrian supply source. This means it can operate anywhere within Austria, tracing to Austrian Major and Forward Depots, but if it moves into Imperial territory, it could not trace to Imperial Major/Forward Depots.

Under this interpretation, this prevents other allied nations (major or minor) from acting independently within an ally's borders. It also allows a nation to attach other units to a force and only be subjected to the movement allowance penalties of being a multi-nation force without a supply sharing marker.

If something happened to your Austrian force that eliminated 2 SPs (you drop them off, for example), the force would then become an Imperial force, and it would have to trace to an Imperial supply source (or use Fortress local supply, which is much more restrictive). If it cannot make the trace at the moment it switches from Austrian to Imperial, it would have to be marked with a reduced supply marker for moving beyond its supply source.


See Bob's ruling below.
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Chad Ridgley
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Thanks Rex for pointing out Rule 4.1.1. That seems logical to me. If this interpretation is correct it would appear that supply for Multi-nation forces can get restrictive and problematic if the nationality of the multi-nation force changes somehow so that a former Austrian multi-nation force becomes an Imperial multi-nation force that is operating in Austrian territory without an Imperial supply source in range and there is no supply sharing in place.



 
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Rex Stites
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As a practical matter, I think if you're careful, you can keep the ratios such that a change in nationality cannot be forced on you. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would require you to remove 2 Austrian SPs, for example, as opposed to 2 Imperial SPs.

If two nations have roughly equal numbers, you just lose some flexibility in dropping off units and transferring lite units to and from the theater boxes. You would have to drop off imperial units, for example, instead of Austrian to keep the force Austrian. If there was an Austrian lite cav or inf, you couldn't transfer it to the theater box without potentially changing the force's nation.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that the supply rules don't apply to forces of 5 SPs or less. So you could drop off 2 Imperial SPs somewhere in your march and those SPs would not be marked out of supply, even if they're not within range of an Imperial supply source.
 
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bob kalinowski
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Guys,

Sorry to throw a wrench in the works, but the 4.1.1 rule means Nationality of force is determined by majority of sp for all purposes-- and we may have found a glitch in that phrase, because...

However, Per 9.2: Supply sources consist of Major Depots (MDs), Forward Depots (FDs), and (for forces only) fortresses. They normally provide supply only to their own nation’s forces or FDs.

and per 9.4: If any part of a multi-nation force has its path cut, the path is considered cut for the entire force.

This implies that if part of your force is unsupplied, the whole force becomes unsupplied (i.e, path cut for Imps, say, beyond their supply ranges, but still in for Aus, tracing to an Aus source -- whole force is still OOS).

Except for fortress local supply, the only way your allies can be supplied in a major power stack is tracing to their own sources, or via supply sharing.

NOTE -- allies' contingents of <6 sp -- minor forces -- are not subject to supply rules, and this was the predominant way they were folded into the Coalition's forces.

This has numerous historical anecdote basis, and we can discuss further, but I don't have time just now.
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Rex Stites
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bobkalinowski wrote:
Guys,

Sorry to throw a wrench in the works, but the 4.1.1 rule means Nationality of force is determined by majority of sp for all purposes-- and we may have found a glitch in that phrase, because...

However, Per 9.2: Supply sources consist of Major Depots (MDs), Forward Depots (FDs), and (for forces only) fortresses. They normally provide supply only to their own nation’s forces or FDs.

and per 9.4: If any part of a multi-nation force has its path cut, the path is considered cut for the entire force.

This implies that if part of your force is unsupplied, the whole force becomes unsupplied (i.e, path cut for Imps, say, beyond their supply ranges, but still in for Aus, tracing to an Aus source -- whole force is still OOS).

Except for fortress local supply, the only way your allies can be supplied in a major power stack is tracing to their own sources, or via supply sharing.

NOTE -- allies' contingents of <6 sp -- minor forces -- are not subject to supply rules, and this was the predominant way they were folded into the Coalition's forces.

This has numerous historical anecdote basis, and we can discuss further, but I don't have time just now.


Thanks for the clarification. That was my original interpretation before looking to the multi-nation force definition and concluding that it trumped the supply rules. I could rationalize either treatment for game purposes, depending on the level abstraction desired. Since it's COM, I should have assumed less abstraction.
 
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bob kalinowski
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Rex,

HA! Yes, less abstraction, since this is The Heavy Duty SIMULATION Wargame CDG Seven Years War Monster, lest we forget!

Minor Allies and Supply -- simply put, except for the Saxons at the very start of the war, the logistics status of all the minor allies, especially the Kreise Imperials, was poor to excrebal. Beyond poor troop quality, there was little cooperation and almost no force sustainment effort of any note mustered by the Kreise states, or Saxony (which at least has the excuse of having been overrun and strip-mined by Frederick) through the war.

It became a defacto requirement for the French and Aus that if they were to march with any sizeable contingent of aux troops, they'd have to foot the supply bill. This was the genesis of the Supply Sharing rule. Note that Imperial Aux is a 3 Ops card spent, along with 1 Thaler, to "jumpstart" the Imps, representing the expenditures necessary to improve their state to be a viable field force (vice fortress garrisons -- much our favorite use for most of them, eh?)

Also note the SA expense to reapply your Supply Sharing marker each year -- beans and bullets, beans and bullets, for your Kreise troops.

PS -- guess Force definition should refer only to "movement and combat." Note Supply Sharing text specifically relates allies being able to trace to the Sharing nation's FDs and MDs (vice NOT, or only using local fortress supply).

Hope this helps.
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Chad Ridgley
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Thanks for stopping by and pointing that out in the rules. COM is certainly a nice game, and i'm enjoying my solo grand campaign more as the flow of play becomes smoother and more understood but it's certainly a challenge to pull all these working parts together and play things correctly.
 
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bob kalinowski
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Chad, concur. COM does not have a ton of rules (For the People and Empire of the Sun have significantly more, for example), but they are very intricately meshed, and there are a lot of subtleties -- and still a few gaps, it appears! .

As stated here, and elsewere throughout the last 8 years, COM was/is my Magnum Opus, trying to capture every aspect of the SYW I deemed important, in ample measure. The game doesn't come with training wheels, and it's not everyones' cup of tea. But as well, I will submit that it is the best strategic SYW game done yet. So if you're up for the challenge (it appears you are), you will get the richest, most accurate depiction of that war to unfold before you.
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Rex Stites
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bobkalinowski wrote:
So if you're up for the challenge (it appears you are), you will get the richest, most accurate depiction of that war to unfold before you.


If I had to choose just one word to describe COM, it would probably be "rich."
 
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Chad Ridgley
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No worries. I'm learning the game and i understand those little gaps in the rules are bound to come up at first. The heart of the game makes sense to me now, so i'm just looking for help on the specifics.

And yes I'm fine with putting some time into a game as long as the rewards are there in the historical or thematic experience as well as the plausible options and "what-if" scenarios that increase replay value. I can certainly see that in CoM. It's a great feeling when you can walk away from a game and feel that you better understand the complexities of the conflict and the reasons why things worked or went astray for both sides. Sometimes it's just bad luck and sometimes its just bad decisions.
 
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Gromenauer Jaaarl
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Maybe because we am not native English speakers, but my friends and me have some trouble with this:

bobkalinowski wrote:
Guys,

Sorry to throw a wrench in the works, but the 4.1.1 rule means Nationality of force is determined by majority of sp for all purposes-- and we may have found a glitch in that phrase, because...

However, Per 9.2: Supply sources consist of Major Depots (MDs), Forward Depots (FDs), and (for forces only) fortresses. They normally provide supply only to their own nation’s forces or FDs.

and per 9.4: If any part of a multi-nation force has its path cut, the path is considered cut for the entire force.

This implies that if part of your force is unsupplied, the whole force becomes unsupplied (i.e, path cut for Imps, say, beyond their supply ranges, but still in for Aus, tracing to an Aus source -- whole force is still OOS).

Except for fortress local supply, the only way your allies can be supplied in a major power stack is tracing to their own sources, or via supply sharing.

NOTE -- allies' contingents of <6 sp -- minor forces -- are not subject to supply rules, and this was the predominant way they were folded into the Coalition's forces.

This has numerous historical anecdote basis, and we can discuss further, but I don't have time just now.


One of my co-players believes this means that if there is a Multinational force consisting of, say, 10 austrian and 4 imperials, and the imperials cannot trace supply, that wouldn't affect the austrians because the imperials, being <6 don't have supply requirements.

On one side, as far as they are not moving (where those who move are obviously together) it seems the owner decides whether thet are separate commands or not. If separate, then I guess my mate would be right because the imperials would be <6.

Quote:
A Command is a force that includes at least one leader. Multiple
Commands may be in one space. The controlling player decides
which SPs and units are assigned to each leader. During Action
Rounds, one Command’s activation is normally completed before
activating another Command.


But on the other side:

Quote:
4.1 Forces and Commands Defined
A force is any number of leaders and/or Line Infantry SPs and/or
cavalry, light infantry and artillery units in a space, with or without
a leader.


and

Quote:
9.3 Tracing Supply
A Force has a valid Supply Path if it can trace from its space back
to an unsuppressed Supply Source.


-----------------

And just to be sure... a force/command that has austrian and saxons/imperials, where austrians are majoritary, needs austrian supply because it's an austrian nationality force/command, or it needs supply from all the nationalities? (supposing they didn't share supply)
 
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Sam Carroll
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Gromenauer wrote:
One of my co-players believes this means that if there is a Multinational force consisting of, say, 10 austrian and 4 imperials, and the imperials cannot trace supply, that wouldn't affect the austrians because the imperials, being <6 don't have supply requirements.

On one side, as far as they are not moving (where those who move are obviously together) it seems the owner decides whether thet are separate commands or not. If separate, then I guess my mate would be right because the imperials would be <6.


This is true to a degree. So really, it wouldn't be a multinational force, but two smaller independent forces. And they couldn't do anything together (move or fight) without combining. Likewise, if an enemy force entered their space, the two defending forces would immediately combine (4.1) and thus suffer a supply penalty.

Quote:
And just to be sure... a force/command that has austrian and saxons/imperials, where austrians are majoritary, needs austrian supply because it's an austrian nationality force/command, or it needs supply from all the nationalities? (supposing they didn't share supply)


It needs supply for all nationalities in the force. Note 10.5, on "sharing supply:"
Quote:
Allows up to 15 allied-nation SPs in that force to trace to the sharing nation’s FDs and MDs for the remainder of the current campaign year . . .


This implies, firstly, that other-nation units in a mixed force may not normally trace supply to the majority nation's supply sources, and secondly, that all SPs (both majority and minority nations) in a force need to trace supply.

In practice, I rarely mess around with mixed forces, unless I'm sharing supply. I'll use Imperial/Saxon forces mostly as garrisons (remember, fortress local supply is good for client nations). However, if I can share supply, getting that Imperial line cavalry unit into an Austrian force can give cavalry majority over the hapless Prussians . . .

As a side note: when Bob wrote CoM's rules, I don't think he was prepared for the kind of rules-lawyering that sometimes happens. (Or to put it another way; his depth of knowledge on the period is such that he might assume that any player of the game would know, for example, how casualties ought to be applied between line and light units, and thus he would not proof the rules against a historically incorrect application.) Note how much of the sections on forces and force combination has been rewritten in the Living Rules - and it's still not absolutely sleaze-proof! You may have to apply some common sense to edge-cases. If it feels at all gamey, then it probably shouldn't be allowed.
 
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