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Evolution: Climate» Forums » Rules

Subject: When played with flight rss

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Joel Weeks
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Are the flight rules changed at all when played with both the climate and flight expansions?

Thank you

Joel
 
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Jordan Booth
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Officially they are not compatible, so you will have to figure out for yourself how to make them work together.
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Joshua Danish
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Born-of-Ashes wrote:
Officially they are not compatible, so you will have to figure out for yourself how to make them work together.


Really? Why were they selling packages with all 3 together at GenCon?
 
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Trevor Schadt
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jdanish wrote:
Born-of-Ashes wrote:
Officially they are not compatible, so you will have to figure out for yourself how to make them work together.
Really? Why were they selling packages with all 3 together at GenCon?
Because you can play either Flight OR Climate with the base game. Just not BOTH (officially).
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Joshua Danish
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Thanks. Based on this I did some googling, and here is an update from the Climate kickstarter in case anyone does want to try and play both:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1923120194/evolution-cl...

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Joel Weeks
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Okay, I understand that you substitute cards instead of just adding all the flight cards to the climate deck, but how is food on the cliffs affected by the climate and special event cards in climate?

I'll be very disappointed if I can't figure out how to play them together. But alas.
 
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Byron S
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joelbear wrote:
Okay, I understand that you substitute cards instead of just adding all the flight cards to the climate deck, but how is food on the cliffs affected by the climate and special event cards in climate?

I'll be very disappointed if I can't figure out how to play them together. But alas.

The designer has recommended to only use the flight trait/species boards and cliff and not the traits from the Flight expansion when combining it with Climate.
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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joelbear wrote:
Okay, I understand that you substitute cards instead of just adding all the flight cards to the climate deck, but how is food on the cliffs affected by the climate and special event cards in climate?

I'll be very disappointed if I can't figure out how to play them together. But alas.


The Cliff's food is not affected by the climate. It's a far away place that only the birds can fly to. It makes for very interesting game play. Definitely try it out.
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Midnight Reaper
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joelbear wrote:
Okay, I understand that you substitute cards instead of just adding all the flight cards to the climate deck, but how is food on the cliffs affected by the climate and special event cards in climate?

I'll be very disappointed if I can't figure out how to play them together. But alas.

The catch here is that the designer differentiates between: A) playing Evolution: Climate along with access to the flying trait, flying creature pop/size boards, and the cliff food base on one hand, and B) adding all of Evolution: Flight into Evolution: Climate and playing with all of the cards of both expansion in your Evolution game. Dominic (the designer) thinks A) is a good way to play Climate and B) is a horrible way to play Evolution in general.

So, in this case, it's semantics... Are you playing Evolution with flying creatures, or are you playing Evolution: Flight and Evolution: Climate together in one big dog-pile of Evolution...

-M_R
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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midnight_reaper wrote:

So, in this case, it's semantics... Are you playing Evolution with flying creatures, or are you playing Evolution: Flight and Evolution: Climate together in one big dog-pile of Evolution...

-M_R


I highly recommend playing "Evolution with flying creatures". But I do not recommend putting all the cards together... and then hoping to draw an appropriate card at the right time. It would be frustratingly swingy.
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Chris Currie
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domcrap wrote:
midnight_reaper wrote:

So, in this case, it's semantics... Are you playing Evolution with flying creatures, or are you playing Evolution: Flight and Evolution: Climate together in one big dog-pile of Evolution...

-M_R


I highly recommend playing "Evolution with flying creatures". But I do not recommend putting all the cards together... and then hoping to draw an appropriate card at the right time. It would be frustratingly swingy.


I'm going to throw an idea out that came up during a recent Climate play, but I haven't tested it so caveat emptor. I fully intend to give this a shot at some point in the near future, but if anyone else is really feeling froggy, be my guest and let us know how it goes.

General Idea - Create two draw decks: one for flight and one for 'ground'.

Particulars - This is complete speculation. Take the Climate deck, pare it back down to 'Base' and 'Climate' cards. From there, there's two lines of thought:

1) Split 'Base' in half, either randomly by dealing two piles or by splitting the actual distribution of the cards (ugh). Shuffle 'Climate' into one 'Base' half. Shuffle 'Flying' into the other 'Base' half.

2) Split 'Climate' in half, either randomly by dealing two piles or by splitting the actual distribution of the cards (ugh). Shuffle 'Base' into one 'Climate' half. Shuffle 'Flying' into the other 'Climate' half.

**This is where speculation completely falls apart and right around the part where Dominic is probably shooting blood from his tear ducts.**

During Play - In player order, players draw a number of cards from either decks up to the number of cards that they should receive (Four + # of species boards).

The idea would be to give players the agency in influencing how they want to balance their hands. Want to pursue the Flight Traits for species building or as a 'defense' against Carnivores and the Climate? Draw from the Flight Deck. Want to focus on anything other than Flight Traits? Draw from the other deck.

I fully expect this to be a disaster, and it's absolutely not the way to introduce the game to your friends and family. You're essentially creating two concurrent metagames, which will no doubt make the game incredibly swingy. Also, splitting up the traits evenly will still inevitably skew one deck or the other to be heavier in food values than the other, destroying the Food Value balance that North Star has fine tuned. This really only attempts to address the dillution of the odds of drawing attack/defense Trait that you're gunning for. The game is incredibly balanced and Evolution: Climate as a complete set is just as balanced as Base Evolution was.

This is purely for those players who do things like play the entire GIPF Project or think about combining Mage Knight with Kingdom Builder.
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Derek Long
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Zwaloo wrote:
...

This is purely for those players who do things like play the entire GIPF Project or think about combining Mage Knight with Kingdom Builder.


How about Dominant Species using a game of Evolution: Climate with Flight to figure out which species should dominate in each contest? Play until one species achieves space flight and complete with Twilight Imperium to see how they fare once they get out into the galaxy? Or maybe High Frontier to keep the more scientific feel.
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Brandon Jacobson
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I thought the idea of separating the Climate deck into 'Base' and 'Climate' decks was novel. Well done.
I understand the whole thing is speculation, but in the pursuit of this actually working, I thought I'd ask:
1. Have you tried this yet?
and 2. I'm concerned that mixing the 'Climate' deck into both the 'Base' and 'Flight' decks would limit one's ability to draw Climate cards (at some point being forced to draw from the deck you hadn't been drawing from if you were playing strictly Land or Avian species.)
What if, instead, 'Climate' was made into its own deck, but players did not have an unlimited ability to draw from it?
Perhaps they could only draw 1 card from that deck eah round. Maybe they could draw a second card from it at the cost of their third card (now drawing 2 Climate cards and 1 other card + # of species instead of 1 Climate card and 3 other cards + # of species or 4 other cards + # of species.)
Thoughts?
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Chris Currie
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Derek Long wrote:
How about Dominant Species using a game of Evolution: Climate with Flight to figure out which species should dominate in each contest? Play until one species achieves space flight and complete with Twilight Imperium to see how they fare once they get out into the galaxy? Or maybe High Frontier to keep the more scientific feel.


You definitely get the picture. That's the sort of thing we used to do over long weekends when I was a kid. Resolving Axis & Allies battles with Stratego or what have you.

PersistentVariant wrote:
I thought the idea of separating the Climate deck into 'Base' and 'Climate' decks was novel. Well done.
I understand the whole thing is speculation, but in the pursuit of this actually working, I thought I'd ask:
1. Have you tried this yet?
and 2. I'm concerned that mixing the 'Climate' deck into both the 'Base' and 'Flight' decks would limit one's ability to draw Climate cards (at some point being forced to draw from the deck you hadn't been drawing from if you were playing strictly Land or Avian species.)
What if, instead, 'Climate' was made into its own deck, but players did not have an unlimited ability to draw from it?
Perhaps they could only draw 1 card from that deck eah round. Maybe they could draw a second card from it at the cost of their third card (now drawing 2 Climate cards and 1 other card + # of species instead of 1 Climate card and 2 other cards + # of species or 4 other cards + # of species.)
Thoughts?


I have not tried my original concept out yet!

See? I did all this thinking about splitting up the decks and was obsessed with collapsing back down. That's a great idea. Three decks, Flight, Climate, Base. IThe biggest issue is going to be that the Climate resolution is based on the Sun/Snow symbols on the Climate cards, so if someone focuses on drawing Climate cards, they're going to have a lot more say on how the Climate adjusts. You're idea of limiting the draw of Climate cards is good. In Climate, you get a base of 4 cards instead of 3 (plus 1 per species board. I worry about splintering the game this much, though. It does warrant at least a couple of rounds of testing, though.

I guess I lost sight of the fact that most folks don't have Climate in-hand yet and that the Gen Con attendees have some lead time to work on this. I'll add it to my list and see if I can't try it out and see where it goes!
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Matt Parker
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I really want to try to play Flight with Climate. I think it would really make for a fun game with a ton of variety.

And I guess that's the thing for me: Variety. One of the coolest aspects of evolution (the science) and Evolution (the game) is the endless variety.

So, for me, taking out sets of cards to add other sets of cards isn't increasing variety within a single game, but just variety from game to game.

I want as many different trait cards as possible in a single game. But I'm aware of balance issues.

My solution is to remove some cards, but not all cards of a trait. When I play Climate/Flight I plan to remove the Flight event cards, leave all the cards with suns and snowflakes in the deck (especially Carnivore cards) and then from the remaining card sets (Long Neck, Scavenger, Camouflage, etc.) remove one card from each. So instead of seven copies of Long Neck, there would only be six. That should free up some deck space without losing variety or unbalancing the game too much.

Does that make sense? Does anyone see a big problem with that plan?
 
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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Warning Call / Ambush is problematic when the deck of cards is larger unless you have a mechanism for seeing more cards per turn.
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Eric Harman
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CenozoicMatt wrote:
I really want to try to play Flight with Climate. I think it would really make for a fun game with a ton of variety.

And I guess that's the thing for me: Variety. One of the coolest aspects of evolution (the science) and Evolution (the game) is the endless variety.

So, for me, taking out sets of cards to add other sets of cards isn't increasing variety within a single game, but just variety from game to game.

I want as many different trait cards as possible in a single game. But I'm aware of balance issues.

My solution is to remove some cards, but not all cards of a trait. When I play Climate/Flight I plan to remove the Flight event cards, leave all the cards with suns and snowflakes in the deck (especially Carnivore cards) and then from the remaining card sets (Long Neck, Scavenger, Camouflage, etc.) remove one card from each. So instead of seven copies of Long Neck, there would only be six. That should free up some deck space without losing variety or unbalancing the game too much.

Does that make sense? Does anyone see a big problem with that plan?


Try it, but my first impression is that it won't really help.
In that case you have both a larger deck, and a smaller chance to get any individual card you may need to adapt to the situation.
Without doing the math, I think at best it won't help the "draw the right card to win" problem, and may even make it worse.
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Matt Parker
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Since, in Climate, Ambush is now a climate changing card I would leave all copies of it in. And since I was doing that, I would leave all copies of Warning Call in as well.

And I would need to crunch the numbers also. I'm not sure at the moment how many cards my idea would add/remove. The deck size might not be significantly different though the ratios of some of the traits would be lower.
 
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Dominic Crapuchettes
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The most important thing is a person's ability to get the card that they need in a timely fashion. There are 3 threats:

1) Starvation
2) Carnivores
3) Climate

The current ratios do not need to be exactly maintained. Changing them sightly can lead to interesting new tendencies at the highest level of play. Changing them significantly can lead to a poorly balanced game or a game with fewer legitimate strategies (though not always). Having a situation where a game changing card like Warning Call could go unanswered for 4+ rounds would create randomness in an otherwise highly strategic game.

I hope that helps!
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Matt Parker
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That helps and I totally understand.

The truth is that sometimes that situation happens already. Someone gets Warning Call and their attacker has trouble finding Ambush (or Intelligence). That's just how it plays out sometimes. I actually enjoy those situations (frustrating though they can be) because it forces the Carnivore being thwarted by Warning Call to adapt their play style in a different direction. And adaptation is a theme of this game, after all! Rather than try to overcome Warning Call with Ambush or Intelligence, why not just make it irrelevant by shifting focus to different prey or going Non-Carnivore. Then your opponent is just wasting a trait spot on Warning Call and may drop it in time.

Anyway, as I said, since Ambush is now a climate affecting card I would keep all copies of it in and therefore all copies of Warning Call as well. I would probably drop a copy of Intelligence though.
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North Star Games
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CenozoicMatt wrote:
That helps and I totally understand.
I actually enjoy those situations (frustrating though they can be) because it forces the Carnivore being thwarted by Warning Call to adapt their play style in a different direction.


I think the main point here is that making thing in the deck for sparse means that the game is more dependent on luck. The person who is 'lucky' enough to get a Warning Call is at a stronger-than-usual position, making Carnivores overall less effective.
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Mandy Benanav
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NorthStar wrote:
CenozoicMatt wrote:
That helps and I totally understand.
I actually enjoy those situations (frustrating though they can be) because it forces the Carnivore being thwarted by Warning Call to adapt their play style in a different direction.


I think the main point here is that making thing in the deck for sparse means that the game is more dependent on luck. The person who is 'lucky' enough to get a Warning Call is at a stronger-than-usual position, making Carnivores overall less effective.


Yeah exactly. Changing the density of each card in the deck drastically changes the luck factor. It would go from being a thing that happens sometimes to a thing that happens so often, the cards could effectively become useless. It would affect a bunch of cards pretty negatively.
 
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Matt Parker
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True. And I would avoid removing cards that influence each other (Camouflage/Good Eyesight, Ambush/Warning Call) to avoid those sorts of problems. But if, for example, I took the Climate game and removed:
1 Foraging
1 Long Neck
1 Pack Hunting
1 Fertile
1 Scavenger
1 Cooperation

And added:
6 Nesting

Then I don't think that would dilute the deck too much of any one trait. And the deck size would remain the same (lose 6 cards, gain 6 cards). That is just one way I can see of adding a trait without removing an entire trait.

I don't know though. Once I get Climate in my eager little hands I'll play around with it. We'll see.

You all are making valid points, but I still think there is a little wiggle room.
 
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Brandon Jacobson
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Derek Long wrote:
The biggest issue is going to be that the Climate resolution is based on the Sun/Snow symbols on the Climate cards, so if someone focuses on drawing Climate cards, they're going to have a lot more say on how the Climate adjusts. You're idea of limiting the draw of Climate cards is good. In Climate, you get a base of 4 cards instead of 3 (plus 1 per species board. I worry about splintering the game this much, though.

I hope I wasn't unclear in what I'd proposed, I understand that in Climate players normally draw 4 cards plus 1 per species board.
I was suggesting that of the cards that a player draws, he only be able to draw 1 Climate card per round, with the exception that he chooses to draw 1 less card overall (drawing 3 cards plus 1 per species board instead of the usual 4) in order to draw a second Climate card.

Derek Long wrote:

I guess I lost sight of the fact that most folks don't have Climate in-hand yet and that the Gen Con attendees have some lead time to work on this. I'll add it to my list and see if I can't try it out and see where it goes!

That would be greatly appreciated. I (as well as many others, it seems) would be anxious to see if we could preserve the strategy of getting the right card while adding some more variability.
 
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Eric Harman
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I think there is definitely room to experiment. And look forward to your reports in how your card substitutions influence the game.

 
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