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Epic Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: End of Turn Initiative (Multiplayer) rss

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Daniel Bucheger
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Comprehensive Rules wrote:
4.3.3 If the player whose turn it is declines to play a card, use a power, or declare a battle, they
must declare they are passing to the End Phase. If any other player plays any number of cards
or a powers, play returns to the Main Phase (4.3.1) where the player whose turn it is may play
cards, use abilities, declare a Battle phase, or pass again. Once all players have passed
Initiative, the turn proceeds to the End Phase.


I think I've been playing this wrong. My group has given Initiative to each player before passing it back to the turn player. Example:

Example 1 wrote:
Player A declares end of turn. Player B plays cards and powers. Player C plays cards and powers. Initiative returns to Player A.



But it seems that this is incorrect and should be played as follows:

Example 2 wrote:
Player A declares end of turn. Player B plays cards and powers. Initiative returns to Player A instead of moving to Player C.


Should we be following the scenario in Example 2?
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Justin Jones
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Interesting. If this is the case, we've been playing it wrong as well. Good eye.
 
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Leigh Ryan
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I came here, read your preposterous suggestion, downloaded the rules, downloaded the complete rules, pored over both... all to prove that you were as wrong as I thought you were.

But I got nothin'. Whilst it's clear in my mind that the creators (through forum responses or video tutorials) have made it apparent that "if nobody plays a card etc then the player's turn moves to the left", I can't find any evidence that what you're suggesting isn't true and, as you've pointed out, clear evidence that it is.

So, yeah. What you said.
 
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Spencer Stockton
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You're second example is correct based off of the rules you stated.

To add to example #2, player A would go back to main phase and attempt to end turn again. Then allowing other players to play starting from the left.
 
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Dom Hiob
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OK, I gave this some thought.

This is a strange beast.

4.3.1's "The player whose turn it is has Initiative." is the offender, I think. Together with 4.3.3's

Quote:
If any other player plays any number of cards or a powers, play returns to the Main Phase (4.3.1)


The problem is that it's really unclear just when this condition is checked. To me, it seems obvious that it can't be checked as long as player B wants to keep playing cards (imagine player A interrupting player B's play: "Ha! You played one card. That's any number of cards. Therefore, by 4.3.3, Initiative now belongs to me!"). If this is true, then the check for the condition plays second fiddle to player B's having initiative. So, more generally speaking, the check on the condition is secondary to initiative order as determined in 4.1. However, an argument could be made that the check should be made after a player passes.


So, the question is: Is the "If" clause checked:

1) after player B passes and before Initiative switches to C, or

2) after all other players have had Initiative?


Since there is nothing in the rules (AFAIK), one could argue either side. So some kind of official clarification (better: rules document amendment) would be very welcome.
 
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Daniel Bucheger
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Given the wording of 4.3.1 (specifically the use of "player" as a singular noun), it would seem that once B has finished playing cards and powers, the turn will be pushed back to the Main Phase and Initiative will return to A. C will have to wait until B passes without playing anything.


So I think we have our answer:

A tries to end turn and passes Initiative to B. When B passes, check for play (Initiative back to A) or no play (Initiative to C). When C passes, check for play (Initiative back to A) or no play (enter End Phase).
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Dom Hiob
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commodore vendari wrote:
Given the wording of 4.3.1 (specifically the use of "player" as a singular noun), it would seem that once B has finished playing cards and powers, the turn will be pushed back to the Main Phase and Initiative will return to A. C will have to wait until B passes without playing anything.


So I think we have our answer:

A tries to end turn and passes Initiative to B. When B passes, check for play (Initiative back to A) or no play (Initiative to C). When C passes, check for play (Initiative back to A) or no play (enter End Phase).


I'm still skeptical. It doesn't seem like the wording in 4.3.1 has been checked very carefully. Here are a couple of points in 4.3.1:

"plays any number of cards": any number can be 0 or 1. plays is present tense. So initiative reverts to player A as soon as B plays 0 or 1 cards?? Seems like we shouldn't take the wording literally in this case.

"any number of cards or a powers": seems like the wording hasn't been double-checked. "a powers"?? It's just a small grammatical error. But it means we shouldn't argue by calling up grammar.

Also, note that the rules document as a whole doesn't seem very finished to me. I didn't check it carefully, but only skimmed through some paragraphs. It talks about "defending champion" when clearly, it should be "blocking champion" ("defending" should only be used with regard to a player). I have some doubts about the wording regarding Initiative during the Combat Phase (especially in Multiplayer formats). And that's, as I said, just skimming through the book.

TL;DR: I'm still not convinced. The rules' status to me doesn't seem to warrant putting too fine a point on a single grammatical construction. I still think an official say is needed.
 
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Daniel Bucheger
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DomHiob wrote:
commodore vendari wrote:
Given the wording of 4.3.1 (specifically the use of "player" as a singular noun), it would seem that once B has finished playing cards and powers, the turn will be pushed back to the Main Phase and Initiative will return to A. C will have to wait until B passes without playing anything.


So I think we have our answer:

A tries to end turn and passes Initiative to B. When B passes, check for play (Initiative back to A) or no play (Initiative to C). When C passes, check for play (Initiative back to A) or no play (enter End Phase).


I'm still skeptical. It doesn't seem like the wording in 4.3.1 has been checked very carefully. Here are a couple of points in 4.3.1:

"plays any number of cards": any number can be 0 or 1. plays is present tense. So initiative reverts to player A as soon as B plays 0 or 1 cards?? Seems like we shouldn't take the wording literally in this case.

"any number of cards or a powers": seems like the wording hasn't been double-checked. "a powers"?? It's just a small grammatical error. But it means we shouldn't argue by calling up grammar.

Also, note that the rules document as a whole doesn't seem very finished to me. I didn't check it carefully, but only skimmed through some paragraphs. It talks about "defending champion" when clearly, it should be "blocking champion" ("defending" should only be used with regard to a player). I have some doubts about the wording regarding Initiative during the Combat Phase (especially in Multiplayer formats). And that's, as I said, just skimming through the book.

TL;DR: I'm still not convinced. The rules' status to me doesn't seem to warrant putting too fine a point on a single grammatical construction. I still think an official say is needed.


I should think it's common sense that "any number" refers to an integer greater than 0. As for Initiative, 4.1.1 makes it clear that players retain Initiative until they decide to yield it. At that point, check for 0 cards played (pass left), or 1 or more (pass back to turn player).

The document also seems to use the term "pass" to be synonymous with declining to make one or more plays (aka playing 0). The document may be incomplete, but I think it's at least conclusive.
 
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Dom Hiob
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commodore vendari wrote:
DomHiob wrote:
"plays any number of cards": any number can be 0 or 1. plays is present tense. So initiative reverts to player A as soon as B plays 0 or 1 cards?? Seems like we shouldn't take the wording literally in this case.

I should think it's common sense that "any number" refers to an integer greater than 0.


Even then, Initiative would pass to A as soon as B has played a single card. But it doesn't, as you say:

Quote:
As for Initiative, 4.1.1 makes it clear that players retain Initiative until they decide to yield it. At that point, check for 0 cards played (pass left), or 1 or more (pass back to turn player).


Except that's exactly the point that needs clarification. Never does it say that the check for 0/"any" cards played is made after the B passes Initiative. Which is my entire point.

Edit: Also, note I was mainly trying to argue against a grammar-based "solution" of the question by making clear that the grammar in the rules document isn't something one should rely on. You seem to agree when you say "it's common sense that 'any number' refers to an integer greater than 0."
 
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Ian Taylor
United States
Massachusetts
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Hello everyone.

Goodness! Such a discussion! Prep for Worlds had taken my attention for a few days, but I'm here now.

The intention behind Initiative is that Player A passes, Initiative goes to B. If B plays something, Initiative goes back to A rather than going to Player C.

So a sequence might go:
A: Pass
B: Does something.
A: Pass
B: Pass
C: Does something
A: Pass
B: Pass
C: Pass

I haven't played very much muliplayer in Epic, but I felt like this would work (and while we could all come up with an overly-complex corner case, 99% of the time it wouldn't matter).

We are toying with a change to the way Initiative works, and bearing in mind that we may change the rule slightly. my question to you all is this: Is there a sufficiently compelling reason to change the multiplayer application that I outlined above? (Making the rule more clear is something that should and will happen anyway.)

I will be in the office next Monday, and I will bring it up to R&D in case they have a strong opinion. I also welcome your strong opinions.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games

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Dom Hiob
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thanks for chiming in and giving an official answer! So now, even I considered this settled (and must admit I've been playing it wrong)
 
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Ian Taylor
United States
Massachusetts
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No worries, that's why I'm here.

The unfortunate truth is that, while we do as much playtesting as necessary, multiplayer doesn't get as much love (both from being a more casual format, and the reality of requiring more than two players to test it). In an office of 4 or 5 people, it's tough to get 3 or more with nothing on their plate at the same time.

Consequently we're far more open to suggestions in this area. We're open to suggestions anyway (see the Recycle rules change, which came directly from player feedback), and if someone has a good suggestion for an improvement for multiplayer, let us know. ian@whitewizardgames dot something gets you to me. It doesn't guarantee change, but I can guarantee consideration.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games
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Ian Taylor
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Massachusetts
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Hey everybody, remember that thing I said?

Yeah, forget that.

We're tweaking the initiative rules, and R&D would prefer multiplayer initiative to go around the board rather than bounce back and forth, so:

A: Passes
B: Does a thing
C: Passes

Because B did a thing, Initiative goes back to A. You always pass to the next player rather than passing back to the active player.

For now, do it this way. We will be updating the rules within the next week with the new initiative rule (most likely after this weekend's qualifiers). It won't be that much different than the old one.

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games
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Dom Hiob
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ha, so does that mean I'm vindicated and I did play it right, after all?
 
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Ian Taylor
United States
Massachusetts
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No, you played it wrong, but you did it so awesomely we changed the rules. Because you're awesome!

Ian Taylor
Director of Organized Play
White Wizard Games
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Like with Recycle, this change looks like it will make play smoother at no real loss, and maybe even introduce some new dynamics. Nice one.
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