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Subject: Player does not play correctly in regards to a wish. How to resolve? Any penalty? rss

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Will Yum
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Tonight we had an error occur in a game of Tichu. A wish was made and a player did not play the wished for card even though they could make the play. The mistake was not discovered until a couple of leads/rounds had passed in the same hand of the game.

1) What should be done (if anything) to resolve/rectify this mistake?

2) Should there be a penalty for the mistake?


==

Details:

Player A had the Mah Jong and played it as a singleton. He wished for a two and also called Tichu.

Player B did not have a two and played a higher singleton. Player A ended up taking the first round of cards and had the lead again. Another player commented about how the wish was still active/out there.

Player A then lead something that did not contain a two even though they had two deuces. A comment was made about how that "was interesting" and play continued.

A couple of rounds later (in the same hand), Player A had the lead once again and another comment about the wish was made. This time, Player A realized he had messed up earlier and should have played to the wish.


What should be done?

Player A was tired and not focused. soblue I don't think it matters, but the mistake was not intentional. In the past, if mistakes were made, we usually caught them right away and would fix it immediately. In this case, the game state had changed significantly before we realized.


==

We thought about the following options:

1) Just cancel the hand and redeal.

2) Finish out the hand with the wish now in effect.

3) Finish out the hand and ignore the wish.



We wondered about a penalty for the team that messed up.

1) No penalty.

2) Give 100 points to the team with no mistake.

3) Take 100 points from the team with the mistake.

4) Give 50 points to the clear team and take 50 points from the team with the mistake.


==

Thoughts???

Any official ruling for such an instance?

Thanks!



 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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willyum wrote:
2) Finish out the hand with the wish now in effect.

This. Now that A realizes that he should have played the 2s earlier, he should now play one or two of them.

After the hand, if player A did not make his tichu, count points as normal; no penalty.

If A made the tichu, try to see if it would have made any difference. For example, if a player has a low single and a low pair, and also a high single and pair to win those tricks, it doesn't matter in which order he plays them.

But sometimes, it makes a difference. If his opponents can make a reasonably plausible argument that they would have prevented him from going out, we either try to reconstruct the probably final result of the hand, or it wouldn't count. We don't deal out penalties, because it's obvious that it's just a mistake. (If it isn't, why would I want to play with A).

But my tichu group is pretty casual. It's possible other groups handle this differently.
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1 Lucky Texan
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My first thought was to cancel the hand and re-deal.

(player A must have had a 2 bomb?, also, I hope he declared a tichu BEFORE he played that MahJong)

interested to read more comments as I have only recently began playing Tichu.
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Paul Beasi
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pijll wrote:
willyum wrote:
2) Finish out the hand with the wish now in effect.

This. Now that A realizes that he should have played the 2s earlier, he should now play one or two of them.

After the hand, if player A did not make his tichu, count points as normal; no penalty.

If A made the tichu, try to see if it would have made any difference. For example, if a player has a low single and a low pair, and also a high single and pair to win those tricks, it doesn't matter in which order he plays them.

But sometimes, it makes a difference. If his opponents can make a reasonably plausible argument that they would have prevented him from going out, we either try to reconstruct the probably final result of the hand, or it wouldn't count. We don't deal out penalties, because it's obvious that it's just a mistake. (If it isn't, why would I want to play with A).

But my tichu group is pretty casual. It's possible other groups handle this differently.


Yeah for a casual game this seems good enough for me. I'm sure tournaments have rules about these scenarios (or at least I would think they do) but with a group of friends I'd just do whatever works for the group.

It's too bad that the person who made the "that's interesting" comment didn't call shenanigans earlier. If Player A had no 2, player B had no 2, and one of player C or D had no 2, that means that either Player A and the remaining player both had some combination of the twos (So player A should have played a 2) or someone had 2222 (in which case it should have also been played).
 
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Aaron Fuegi
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seqiro wrote:
pijll wrote:
willyum wrote:
2) Finish out the hand with the wish now in effect.

This. Now that A realizes that he should have played the 2s earlier, he should now play one or two of them.

After the hand, if player A did not make his tichu, count points as normal; no penalty.

If A made the tichu, try to see if it would have made any difference. For example, if a player has a low single and a low pair, and also a high single and pair to win those tricks, it doesn't matter in which order he plays them.

But sometimes, it makes a difference. If his opponents can make a reasonably plausible argument that they would have prevented him from going out, we either try to reconstruct the probably final result of the hand, or it wouldn't count. We don't deal out penalties, because it's obvious that it's just a mistake. (If it isn't, why would I want to play with A).

But my tichu group is pretty casual. It's possible other groups handle this differently.


Yeah for a casual game this seems good enough for me. I'm sure tournaments have rules about these scenarios (or at least I would think they do) but with a group of friends I'd just do whatever works for the group.

It's too bad that the person who made the "that's interesting" comment didn't call shenanigans earlier. If Player A had no 2, player B had no 2, and one of player C or D had no 2, that means that either Player A and the remaining player both had some combination of the twos (So player A should have played a 2) or someone had 2222 (in which case it should have also been played).


It sounds like players C&D combined had the other twos. If it is 1 each, there really isn't any way for someone to know there was an issue. B showed none. A claimed none. As far as C&D are concerned the split is 1/3 between them (both think that even though it is really 1/1) which is totally plausible.

I agree with the proposed solution. One should make sure team AC got no benefit from the mistake. Assuming it was just a mistake, as I am sure it was, there feels no need to impose a penalty; just in deciding they got no benefit one should be leaning on the side of BD where there are any questions.
 
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Paul Beasi
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I based my assumption on the fact that someone found it "interesting" that Player A did not play a two. What would have inspired that comment? Unfulfilled wishes, especially 2s, happen a LOT and are decidedly uninteresting. It's only interesting if one of player C or D has no 2s.

 
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Kevin Cachia
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Well, historically speaking, a man could have gotten shot in the Old West for doing a thing like that. So, in my group we usually just drive the offending player out to the Old West and shoot him. And then we wonder what 3-player games we have available.

Seriously though, I have never, to my knowledge, played with someone who failed to fulfill the wish deliberately, so when we realize it has happened we simply scrap the hand and do a do-over. Seems the only fair way, since putting the wish back in effect later could significantly impact the results of the hand.
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Gillum the Stoor
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kevinwho wrote:
When we realize it has happened we simply scrap the hand and do a do-over. Seems the only fair way, since putting the wish back in effect later could significantly impact the results of the hand.

For casual games, this may be best - but you don't want to encourage people to ignore a wish when they realize that they might do better with a re-deal.
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Will Yum
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gillum wrote:
kevinwho wrote:
When we realize it has happened we simply scrap the hand and do a do-over. Seems the only fair way, since putting the wish back in effect later could significantly impact the results of the hand.

For casual games, this may be best - but you don't want to encourage people to ignore a wish when they realize that they might do better with a re-deal.


Thank you everyone for the replies!

We just cancelled out the hand with no penalty. But I wonder what would happen in a tournament situation. Read about revoking/reneging in bridge and there are complicated rules about how to enforce a penalty.

Player C had a single two.
Player D had a single two.

Neither C nor D could have realized there was an error.

It was "interesting" because once A and B skipped on the wish, it told C and D where all the twos were located in the game. And of course all the players knew there was no bomb containing a two or it would have been played on the first go around of cards.
 
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Paul Beasi
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Ok, I guess I just don't consider knowing where the twos are to be super interesting.
 
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Jeff Chunko
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This is why when there's an outstanding wish for a card, we remind people before each play that it exists. That's kept me from seeing this happen. What has happened are mistakes by folks who don't understand the interactions between the rules covering the wish/phoenix/bombs. I've discovered that even long time players can make mistakes there.
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Gillum the Stoor
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We try to avoid this situation as follows.

If the wished-for card is not played in the trick to which the 1 was led, we leave the 1 on the table to remind everyone that a wish is outstanding.

When the card is finally played, the 1 gets collected with that trick.

Since the 1 isn't worth any points, it doesn't really matter who collects it.
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Michi Hostettler
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willyum wrote:
We just cancelled out the hand with no penalty. But I wonder what would happen in a tournament situation. Read about revoking/reneging in bridge and there are complicated rules about how to enforce a penalty.

In a tournament, the hand would most likely be cancelled when such a mistake is discovered and scored 200:0 for the opponents. Unless all players agree to resolve the situation differently.

But for a casual game, I'd also just repeat the hand without scoring.
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Will Yum
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michi4242 wrote:
willyum wrote:
We just cancelled out the hand with no penalty. But I wonder what would happen in a tournament situation. Read about revoking/reneging in bridge and there are complicated rules about how to enforce a penalty.

In a tournament, the hand would most likely be cancelled when such a mistake is discovered and scored 200:0 for the opponents. Unless all players agree to resolve the situation differently.

But for a casual game, I'd also just repeat the hand without scoring.


Do you, or anyone else, know of any formal Tichu tournament rules?

I would think there might be one out there. I've never heard of a Tichu tournament, but I've never searched for one.

Thanks!!
 
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Michi Hostettler
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In Switzerland, there are yearly official tournaments organized by Fata Morgana. There are two tournaments per year, one in team mode (where you keep your partner for the whole tournament) and one individual (where teams are built ad-hoc every round). A brief description of both tournament modes, albeit in German: http://fatamorgana.ch/tichu/turniere/aktuell.asp

In a nutshell: it's a swiss-system tournament. Every tournament round ends after at most 6 hands (8 for team mode), when a team wins (1000 Tichu points), or when time expires (50 min or 60 min for team mode).
After each round, Victory Points (VP) are awarded - 3 VP for the winning team, 1:1 for both in case of a draw, and 0 for the losing team. Then tables are rebuilt, by grouping together players (or teams for team mode) close in VPs. This will make stronger players play against each other...
After a predefined number of tournament rounds, the player (team) with the most VP wins the tournament. The Tichu points scored during the individual rounds break ties.

Apart from that, standard (Fata Morgana) Tichu rules apply. In general, if a hand must be cancelled due to some player inadvertently breaking the rules, it is scored 200:0 for the opponents. In doubt, the organizer (usually Lu Merlach) is the referee to resolve conflicts. However, such misplays are rare enough.
The 'penalty' (200:0) scoring is basically only there to avoid anyone from taking advantage of rule violations. E.g. if you just cancelled a hand without scoring, as I'd do in a casual game, someone could claim the opponent misplayed on purpose since they got a bad hand.
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