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Subject: Shooters rss

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Dave Kudzma
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We've only a single play under our belt, and while I was the Sin, I wanted to post about the angle our players took with shooters.

Monsters will never leave a space with a hero. If a shooter positions itself between the target and other heroes, even if they fail to kill the target, they will not be vulnerable to the counter attack. Even if the monster could have reached them it stops in the first hero space it enters and cannot move out.

The Sins player cannot react using that monster. It's immobilized, and until the player's turn whose hero drew the "aggro" ends, the Sins player has one or more vulnerable monsters in that space.

So, in the end, our players seemed to be using shooters pretty effectively; unless we were doing something wrong.

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Mark Thompson
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Dave, you did it right... shooters are great when positioned right... not so great when they try and Rambo it. Glad they figured that out quickly.
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Jason Ober
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We've only played one game, so I'm not totally up to speed on the rules, but why wouldn't the Sins player be able to react using that monster? I know they can't move it, but they can react to attack the shooter, right? Or more importantly, they can react with another monster (if available) and move it into the shooters apace and maul him with 2 monsters, correct?

We only played the once, and we were lukewarm on it, but it did seem like it was very different from a lot of other games we've played, so it may just be a case of getting the hang of the new mechanics. I'm hoping!
 
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Dave Kudzma
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oberjt wrote:
We've only played one game, so I'm not totally up to speed on the rules, but why wouldn't the Sins player be able to react using that monster? I know they can't move it, but they can react to attack the shooter, right? Or more importantly, they can react with another monster (if available) and move it into the shooters apace and maul him with 2 monsters, correct?

We only played the once, and we were lukewarm on it, but it did seem like it was very different from a lot of other games we've played, so it may just be a case of getting the hang of the new mechanics. I'm hoping!


This is all about taking advantage of two things:

- Monsters cannot leave a space if it contains a hero
- The Sins player can only react to, and then potentially attack, the current player

In my example, the shooter put another hero between himself and the target monster; ideally in the exact path that monster. If that monster moved, and enters the space with another hero, it is unable to leave a space with a hero, and there is no way the target could reach the shooter. Honestly, since the actual move is optional on the part of the Sin, there would be no reason for the Sin player to move unless they were trying to coordinate some other strategy.

If there was another monster in movement range, the Sin player could respond, moving that monster in (and perhaps an acolyte, or more baddies using other Sin card shenanigans), however the idea is to keep the shooters out of range of that vulnerability, keeping heroes between them and other monsters, allowing them to snipe with impunity.
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Dave Kudzma
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oberjt wrote:
We've only played one game, so I'm not totally up to speed on the rules, but why wouldn't the Sins player be able to react using that monster? I know they can't move it, but they can react to attack the shooter, right? Or more importantly, they can react with another monster (if available) and move it into the shooters apace and maul him with 2 monsters, correct?

We only played the once, and we were lukewarm on it, but it did seem like it was very different from a lot of other games we've played, so it may just be a case of getting the hang of the new mechanics. I'm hoping!


BTW, it's OT, but you get a GG for giving Earth Reborn a 10.
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William Aull
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r0cky143 wrote:
Dave, you did it right... shooters are great when positioned right... not so great when they try and Rambo it. Glad they figured that out quickly.


Right!

With only 2 potential shooters in your lineup, its a good idea to wipe them out as soon as you can.
 
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Brian Augustine
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Its good to hear the "shooters suck" reaction was overblown. Thanks for posting.
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Jason Ober
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Ah gotcha, it's clicking now. The sin player can't really react with that monster to the shooter, because that monster is now tied up. This is what I'm hoping for - that the strategies are different enough that my addled mind just hasn't seen them yet!

Thanks for the GeekGold! Earth Reborn is AMAZING!
 
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Diversion Architect
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locusshifter wrote:
Even if the monster could have reached them it stops in the first hero space it enters and cannot move out.

Just to clarify, if a monster is attacked in a Ranged Fight, but is unable to reach the hero who started the ranged fight- it does not move at all. (page 36, difference 2, final sentence)

So the shooter can't force a monster to move into the ally's space. It would only do that during the Sin's reaction, and only if the Sin chose to move it into that space.
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Dave Kudzma
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diversionArchitect wrote:
locusshifter wrote:
Even if the monster could have reached them it stops in the first hero space it enters and cannot move out.

Just to clarify, if a monster is attacked in a Ranged Fight, but is unable to reach the hero who started the ranged fight- it does not move at all. (page 36, difference 2, final sentence)

So the shooter can't force a monster to move into the ally's space. It would only do that during the Sin's reaction, and only if the Sin chose to move it into that space.


That is a good clarification. In our games, however, the shooters have been "pulling aggro" within range of monsters, forcing them into spaces with other heroes. It's a great strategy when you can pull it off.
 
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Dan Harrow
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locusshifter wrote:
That is a good clarification. In our games, however, the shooters have been "pulling aggro" within range of monsters, forcing them into spaces with other heroes. It's a great strategy when you can pull it off.

His point was that you shouldn't be able to do that. If the monster can't get to the shooter, they will stay still, instead of move as far as they can. A hero in a space between the monster and the shooter (with no way to go around) means that the monster cannot move to the shooter's space, and thus, will not move at all.
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Brian M
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Got to say, we've been finding shooters pretty terrible. After the first turn or two, the monsters all seem to be off the streets and hiding in buildings.
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Bellmore
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StormKnight wrote:
Got to say, we've been finding shooters pretty terrible. After the first turn or two, the monsters all seem to be off the streets and hiding in buildings.


Sounds like the heroes have run of the streets then, which is a boon for the Faith team.
 
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Brian M
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DarkWolff wrote:
StormKnight wrote:
Got to say, we've been finding shooters pretty terrible. After the first turn or two, the monsters all seem to be off the streets and hiding in buildings.


Sounds like the heroes have run of the streets then, which is a boon for the Faith team.

If there was any use at all to being in the streets other than to get to buildings, sure. But there's not, so...so what?

The only reason to have monsters in the streets is to slow down the heroes and make them waste actions fighting the monsters to get past, and a shooter doesn't help if a monster is out there with that intent; it still takes an action to get past.
 
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JH
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OK, not having played, maybe I'm missing something here. But the main way for the Sins player to win is to kill heroes, right? So those monsters have to leave their buildings eventually if you don't bring the heroes to their door?
 
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Brian M
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
OK, not having played, maybe I'm missing something here. But the main way for the Sins player to win is to kill heroes, right? So those monsters have to leave their buildings eventually if you don't bring the heroes to their door?


And I'm only speaking from 4 plays of experience, so maybe I'm way off base, but so far all the real "action" takes place in the buildings; it is where most of the objectives and boosts for both sides are. The heroes want to get into buildings to complete their objectives, block altars, use the building power ups, etc. It hasn't been that the Sin player tries to get the monsters off street just to get them off, that's just where things end up. Sure, there's some acolyte sitting off on a side alley, but the heroes don't care because its not in their way at the moment.

As mentioned, I feel like when the Sin player does put a monster in the street, its in hopes of making the heroes burn an action having to kill it, which a shooter still has to do.
 
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JH
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Huh. Sounds like shooters are the opportunists/sacrificial pawns of the hero set, then.

One more question: Since the Sins player starts with 13 monsters on the board (controller, abominations, acolytes), how do so many get into buildings so fast when only one can move per reaction (one per round per hero, right?), and monsters that get shot at can only move to the shooter? I know they don't all start on the street. Just trying to get a sense of the game flow.
 
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Brian M
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
Huh. Sounds like shooters are the opportunists/sacrificial pawns of the hero set, then.

One more question: Since the Sins player starts with 13 monsters on the board (controller, abominations, acolytes), how do so many get into buildings so fast when only one can move per reaction (one per round per hero, right?), and monsters that get shot at can only move to the shooter? I know they don't all start on the street. Just trying to get a sense of the game flow.


Well, let's take scenario 3 map B as an example (this was the last game I played, and we played it twice, so it is fresh in my mind). 5 of the monsters start in districts. 2 are tucked behind a district in an isolated area of street; the only way to shoot at them would be from one of those two street spaces, which means moving into a space with one of them. One hero might go down there to keep the monsters out of the district above, but a shooter doesn't really enjoy any advantage in dealing with them in such a confined area. And if the Sin player really wants to move the monsters, she can move them before the heroes can get there.

The other outside monsters are mostly around the back edges of districts. Depending on where the heroes go, the Sin player will likely want to move the closer monsters into the nearby district, not to "get them off the street", but because the monsters won't be in a very useful place where they are currently sitting. The Sin player will likely move those before the shooter can be in position to attack them.

The monsters that aren't moved inside are probably lurking in far off places. A shooter could probably snipe at them, but it would take several turns of maneuvering, and they aren't an imminent threat; while the shooter is getting there, the shooter is not helping cleanse damage tokens, or helping contribute fight dice to the more important fights going on.

The net result seems to be that a ranged attack just isn't very exciting, but the shooters generally seem to have very weak special abilities (presumably to compensate for the advantage of their ranged attacks) leading to an overall really weak character. Most of what you want a shooter to do someone else can probably do better. For example, shooting at an acolyte to move it out of a blocking spot without killing it (to keep the Sin player from having any dead acolytes to use the Acolyte power with) might be useful, but Rose can do the same thing from anywhere on the map, with total reliability, and while still using her action to do something else.

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Oden Dee
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
One more question: Since the Sins player starts with 13 monsters on the board (controller, abominations, acolytes), how do so many get into buildings so fast when only one can move per reaction (one per round per hero, right?)

All Sin decks have this card
Evil regroups
Start of hero turn:
Move up to 2 Monsters one Space each.

Also the Sin player is motivated to stack in a district because of the Sin card Hate! which is in every deck.
Hate!
Place this card in any Space with an Altar. If you end the round with 3 or more Monsters there, raise the Apocalypse Track by 1.
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brian giese
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As someone that plays the Sins all the time. i empty the streets as fast as possible because how good the Shooters are. They don't get their abilities in buildings, and it is almost better to stack monsters, unless you are trying to delay players.
 
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amanwing
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I agree that shooters are not very good because monsters just leave the streets or for all the other reasons Brian M mentioned. Maybe shooters should be allowed to shoot into buildings/districts when adjacent.
 
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