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Subject: Kicked-out Last Round interpretation rss

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Will Sanchez
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In the rulebook it has a somewhat ambiguous wording that in the last round players don't get kicked out actions. This can easily be read as "Kicked out actions don't occur ever in the last round", but it could also be read as "players cannot take kicked out actions after they've placed their gallerist this turn".

While the first interpretation is the simplest, it seems very unfair to the later players in turn order for the last round, since they will have fewer "kicked out" opportunities than ones earlier in the turn.

i.e, second to last turn of the game: there are three players who can kick out player 1, but there are no players who can kick out player 4 (because it will be the last round of the game after p4's turn)

The second interpretation seems more fair, since P1 and P4 together will both have an equal number of kicked out opportunities, but you have to read into the rules a bit to convince others of that even though it should be more fair and balanced.

So is the intended interpretation case 1 or case 2?
 
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A Huynh
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There are no kick out actions in the last round of the game.

This is not unfair because the number of kick out actions is variable in the game, if a player hires many assistants and puts them out on the board they are going to have more kick out actions than a player who does not hire assistants. There will never be an "equal number of kicked out opportunities", especially in a four player game.
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Ken Dilloo
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The Ginger Ninja
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Just adding to Katanan, that there are no kicked out actions, in the last round.

I don't believe kick-out action fairness should be hand wrung over either. Anecdotal, but I played one game, as an experiment, where I simply tried to get as many free actions as possible. Thought I was going to crush it, but ended up lagging on final scoring. Give it a try. Somehow in this game, it seems free actions do not equate to victory.
 
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Jon Ben
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There are no kicked out actions in the last round.

Unlike those above, I agree with you that this disadvantages those later in turn order. They will, on average, have fewer kicked out actions.

This bias is very similar to the one you find in games that don't play full rounds. So the first players have, on average, more turns than later players.
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Will Sanchez
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katanan wrote:
There are no kick out actions in the last round of the game.

This is not unfair because the number of kick out actions is variable in the game, if a player hires many assistants and puts them out on the board they are going to have more kick out actions than a player who does not hire assistants. There will never be an "equal number of kicked out opportunities", especially in a four player game.


if that were sufficient justification though, why have the no-last-round-kickouts rule at all then? if it wasn't intended as a balance mechanism, why arbitrarily add it to the rules?
 
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A Huynh
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It's intended as one "last action" that you can take in the game, it's not a "balancing mechanism".

It is similar to games such as Le Havre and Ora et Labora there is one last action that can't be blocked by other players. In the case of the Gallerist, it's just a last action that does not benefit other players. It's an important rule because if you trigger the end of the game you know that at least you will have one more action.

For example in the last 3 player game of Gallerist I played, I hired more assistants than other players, I would often have two assistants out on the board. At the end of the game I probably had about 3-4 more kicked out actions than the other two players. Do you think the game needs to provide them with 3-4 kick out actions at the end of the game to "balance" that?

I was the last player (sat to the right of the start player) and ended up with more actions, of course I had to sacrifice quite a bit more influence throughout the game too.

edit: spelling
 
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Snooze Fest
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delta_angelfire wrote:
In the rulebook it has a somewhat ambiguous wording that in the last round players don't get kicked out actions. This can easily be read as "Kicked out actions don't occur ever in the last round", but it could also be read as "players cannot take kicked out actions after they've placed their gallerist this turn".

While the first interpretation is the simplest, it seems very unfair to the later players in turn order for the last round, since they will have fewer "kicked out" opportunities than ones earlier in the turn.

I'm not sure how you come up with ambiguity, or that second interpretation: the rulebook seems very unambiguous to me -- there are no kicked out actions whatsoever in that final round.

But yes, the players later in turn order will have less opportunity to be kicked out in that penultimate round. They were, however, compensated during setup by being given first choice at locations. Presumably, they could choose more desirable, more likely kicked-out locations to have been kicked out more often at the start of the game.
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Will Sanchez
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snoozefest wrote:

But yes, the players later in turn order will have less opportunity to be kicked out in that penultimate round. They were, however, compensated during setup by being given first choice at locations. Presumably, they could choose more desirable, more likely kicked-out locations to have been kicked out more often at the start of the game.


They were compensated at setup because otherwise they lose they're kick out action on round 1 AND the penultimate round. Being compensated 1 kickout action makes up for losing 1, not losing 2, so it should have nothing to do with the final round no-kickout rule.
 
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A Huynh
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delta_angelfire wrote:
snoozefest wrote:

But yes, the players later in turn order will have less opportunity to be kicked out in that penultimate round. They were, however, compensated during setup by being given first choice at locations. Presumably, they could choose more desirable, more likely kicked-out locations to have been kicked out more often at the start of the game.


They were compensated at setup because otherwise they lose they're kick out action on round 1 AND the penultimate round. Being compensated 1 kickout action makes up for losing 1, not losing 2, so it should have nothing to do with the final round no-kickout rule.


Again there is no such thing as a balanced amount of kick out actions. Especially in the case of a 3 player game there will almost always be an unequal amount of kick out actions.

Throughout the game, the amount of kick out actions are going to differ, there is no way to ensure that everyone gets the same amount of kick out actions. Additionally, someone focused on gaining more influence will take more extra main actions (from kick out actions that cost influence) than someone who has low influence and uses most of their kick out actions for executive actions. The game benefits those who plan ahead and can gain the most value from their kick out actions.

The game should not have to balance for poor play!

If you want more kick out actions leave more assistants around the board and make sure you have enough influence on the track to take extra main actions. Players should not have to be compensated for inefficient play.
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Will Sanchez
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katanan wrote:


The game should not have to balance for poor play!



no but the game should be balanced for good players which this obviously is not. guess that's another game off the wishlist and i'll have to revise my rating of it.
 
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A Huynh
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delta_angelfire wrote:
katanan wrote:


The game should not have to balance for poor play!



no but the game should be balanced for good players which this obviously is not. guess that's another game off the wishlist and i'll have to revise my rating of it.


Oh so you want a catch up mechanism in this game? Then sorry it really is not for you.

If you fall behind in terms of the number of kick out actions then that's your own fault not the game.
 
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Ken Dilloo
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This thread has almost turned into a strategy article, but I am still unconvinced that the sheer number of kick-out actions is key...or an issue with the game.

What is most important, is the timing of the kicked-out actions, with respect to the game state and your position on the fame track.

In short, raw # of kicked-out actions does not equal an advantage. Good play, coupled with shrewd timing of those actions, is key.
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A Huynh
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bigloo33 wrote:
This thread has almost turned into a strategy article, but I am still unconvinced that the sheer number of kick-out actions is key...or an issue with the game.

What is most important, is the timing of the kicked-out actions, with respect to the game state and your position on the fame track.

In short, raw # of kicked-out actions does not equal an advantage. Good play, coupled with shrewd timing of those actions, is key.


Exactly! What good are more kick out actions if you can't take advantage of it by using influence to take a main action. It's always mystifying when players blame the game for "balance" when it is actually their own inability to plan ahead that is the issue.
 
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