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Subject: I'm worried about the game's length... rss

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SPACEBOY
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Hi,

L&C has been in my wishlist for a long time. Now I'm about to close an order and am considering to include it. Even though, I've heard comments saying things like "it takes forever", so I'm re-considering if this would be a good choice for me.

For this thread purposes, some of my currently favorite games are:
-Race for the Galaxy
-Tzolk'in: The Mayan Calendar
-Through the Ages
-Agricola
-Castles of mad king Ludwig
-Imperial Settlers

So, what do you guys could tell me about those commentaries I'm worried about? Tacking into consideration my boardgame preferences, will L&C fit with my gaming tastes?

Thanks meeple
 
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Mark Johnson
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Comments saying things like "it takes forever" are usually when people play 4 or 5-player games. Though there is definitely a learning curve to the game. So, even games with 2 - 3 players will initially take a long time. Once familiar with the rules, cards, and flow of the game, it should be fine.
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Atnier Rodriguez
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It doesn't take that long. That said, I introduce it to new players as "the slowest race game" to let them know that it's going to be frustrating at first to crack the right combination of cards and materials that will actually allow you to move forward.

It's a very good game, but have everyone alert when playing it as there shall be some brain burn.
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Christopher Bouthner
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I dont think you have much to worry about, Lewis & Clark takes about the same amount of time as the other games on your list. However as was mentioned your first time playing expect it to take significantly longer to play then normal. For whatever reason this game is difficult to get your head wrapped around at first but after you get your first game out of the way the game is actually a fairly quick moving game.

I normally play with 2 players and the game takes about an hour to play. I have played a 4 player game and that took about two hours.

On a side note, it is a fantastic game with some unique mechanics and some of the best artwork in a game.
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Andrew MacLeod
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YaBoyTopher wrote:
I dont think you have much to worry about, Lewis & Clark takes about the same amount of time as the other games on your list.


Well, a two-player game of L&C might take as long as Race for the Galaxy or Agricola; but even with just two players, L&C is a fair bit longer than Imperial Settlers. Three players, you're getting close to two hours; and four or five players, you're definitely well over the two hour mark.
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SPACEBOY
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Thanks for all your quick responses guys!
Even though, I don't understand how Race for the Galaxy can be considered longer than Imperial Settlers:

amacleod wrote:
...a two-player game of L&C might take as long as Race for the Galaxy or Agricola; but even with just two players, L&C is a fair bit longer than Imperial Settlers.




PS: the situation is I would play L&C primarly with 4-5 players soblue
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Brandon Hafeli
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I taught it at a small con to three newbies. They didn't quite finish the game in the two hours that included teaching time. They'd have been done in maybe fifteen more minutes. So that's three players with an experienced overseer. Expect 2-3 hours.

I believe the rulebook actually recommends not playing with five, even though it allows that many.
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Emperor Penguin
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FinrondFelagund wrote:

PS: the situation is I would play L&C primarly with 4-5 players soblue


Well there is always Discoveries that plays fast even at 4.

If you are going to play L&C with 4 or 5 make sure everyone understands the symbols first. In fact if everyone can read the rules and card summaries before hand that would help. I found that the worst part was everyone always looking at the rules for what a card meant. I think the first edition had a reference card for everyone, but I think they got rid of that in later printings.
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SPACEBOY
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Thank you so much all you guys. BGG is undoubtedly a great community! meeple
 
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SPACEBOY
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I almost forgot: I know Discoveries is from the same game designer, but I see it is rated a lot places below L&C... Would be it as good as L&C?
 
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Andrew MacLeod
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FinrondFelagund wrote:
I almost forgot: I know Discoveries is from the same game designer, but I see it is rated a lot places below L&C... Would be it as good as L&C?


Somewhat better, in my opinion. Less brain-burn and more tense! And it has a shorter playing-time.
 
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Emperor Penguin
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FinrondFelagund wrote:
I almost forgot: I know Discoveries is from the same game designer, but I see it is rated a lot places below L&C... Would be it as good as L&C?


Discoveries was possibly my favorite game of last year so I may be biased.

I have only played regular L&C once with five players and twice solo so I have not experienced it at its best. The five players experience we had scared eveyone else away and they won't play it again.

So I actually prefer Discoveries because I can actually get it to the table.
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Kathleen Nugent
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I have and play both Lewis & Clark and Discoveries. I play mostly 2-player.

I think Lewis & Clark is much more thematic than Discoveries - and a lot more fun. With 2 players, I'd always prefer Lewis & Clark. It's easy to understand why others are recommending that it not be played with 4 or 5 - too many questions need to be answered, adding to the play time.

Because there are so many cards in Lewis & Clark - and many of them are very different from others - I think it will be a while before you can know exactly what each card does just from looking at the iconography. I'm still reading the explanation from the rules book for many of the cards. The explanations clarify what might be ambiguous on the cards.

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Andrew MacLeod
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EllenCaroline wrote:

I think Lewis & Clark is much more thematic than Discoveries - and a lot more fun.


Not to denigrate the great game that is L&C, I nevertheless find it drier than Discoveries. I think I find Discoveries more thematic due to the representation of actual, individual aboriginal nations in the game, while in Lewis&Clark, things tend to be more abstract.
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Alexandre P.
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FinrondFelagund wrote:
PS: the situation is I would play L&C primarly with 4-5 players soblue


I count 20-30 minutes per player.
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Christopher Bouthner
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I will say I would not go with this game if your intention is to play it primarily as a 5 player game, I love the game but I do think it would drag at that player count.

But at 2-4 I really feel it plays at a good pace, especially after you get your first play out of the way.
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Hardy
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We usually need about 30min per player.
Definitely quicker than Acricola.
5 is not the best number as it makes the game just longer, but not better. 3 is perfect, 4 is good. 5 only if players play quickly.
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SPACEBOY
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Thanks again.
I watched videos about Discoveries; I felt attracted by its dice mechanisms but still feel that L&C is best for me (even though I won't be playing it with 4 more players, as you've recommended). I think I ended choosing L&C 'cause I anticipate it to be deeper than Disc.

Funny thing is now I'm not sure between L&C and The Voyages of Marco Polo (a game that a friend of mine talked to me yesterday).
 
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Andrew MacLeod
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FinrondFelagund wrote:

Funny thing is now I'm not sure between L&C and The Voyages of Marco Polo (a game that a friend of mine talked to me yesterday).


I consider The Voyages of Marco Polo to be marginally better than L&C. Mind you, I also consider Discoveries to be better than both, so what do I know?
 
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Hardy
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Well I don't think it will help much, if now several peopel write I like this or that better. He can see ratings, which are slightly better for Marco P.
The reason for that is, that Marco Polo really rings the mainstream bell (within the gamer's scene), it has all which is nowadays fashionable amongst eurogamers (worker placement, dice as workers, goods trading, victory points salad, variable setup, player powers etc.).
While L&C is a very special work of a genius, which stands out from the crowd through its innovative uniqueness. Yet because it is so special, not everbody is able to appreciate it's ingenuity.

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Andrew MacLeod
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actaion wrote:
Well I don't think it will help much, if now several peopel write I like this or that better. He can see ratings, which are slightly better for Marco P.
The reason for that is, that Marco Polo really rings the mainstream bell (within the gamer's scene), it has all which is nowadays fashionable amongst eurogamers (worker placement, dice as workers, goods trading, victory points salad, variable setup, player powers etc.).


All of which are things I tend to despise, yet I still marginally prefer it over L&C! Strangely enough, I even think Discoveries is better still, and it uses dice-as-workers, too!
 
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Don Quichotte
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actaion wrote:
...L&C is a very special work of a genius, which stands out from the crowd through its innovative uniqueness.

This!
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quaoar 10
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I like L&C a lot, but I am hesitant to play it with more than three. The downtime is too high otherwise since you often need to wait for the other players to finish their turn before you can plan your move. Also, miscalculating the number of resources or Indians can really cost you a lot.
 
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Kathleen Nugent
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amacleod wrote:
EllenCaroline wrote:

I think Lewis & Clark is much more thematic than Discoveries - and a lot more fun.


Not to denigrate the great game that is L&C, I nevertheless find it drier than Discoveries. I think I find Discoveries more thematic due to the representation of actual, individual aboriginal nations in the game, while in Lewis&Clark, things tend to be more abstract.


What?

Yes, the Indian cards have names of tribes on them in Discoveries. But there are Indians in Lewis & Clark too. And the names on the cards have nothing to do with the special abilities each card provides.

When I first saw Lewis & Clark I was excited because each card is the name of a real person (or dog) who participated in the Voyage of Discovery. And the rules book has bios of all the people. Neat!

In Lewis & Clark you're actually going down the rivers they traversed and setting up camp each night. In Discoveries you're changing a foot die into an Indian die. How thematic is that?
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Andrew MacLeod
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Ellen Caroline wrote:
amacleod wrote:
EllenCaroline wrote:

I think Lewis & Clark is much more thematic than Discoveries - and a lot more fun.


Not to denigrate the great game that is L&C, I nevertheless find it drier than Discoveries. I think I find Discoveries more thematic due to the representation of actual, individual aboriginal nations in the game, while in Lewis&Clark, things tend to be more abstract.


What?

Yes, the Indian cards have names of tribes on them in Discoveries. But there are Indians in Lewis & Clark too. And the names on the cards have nothing to do with the special abilities each card provides.


My main point was that the illustrations of aboriginals in Discoveries on the tribal cards are actually accurate portrayals of those nations at that time period. The art is much more generic in L&C, which also has generic aboriginal meeples, as opposed to meeples representing particular nations.

Ellen Caroline wrote:
When I first saw Lewis & Clark I was excited because each card is the name of a real person (or dog) who participated in the Voyage of Discovery. And the rules book has bios of all the people. Neat!


Yes, I, too, couldn't believe the amount of theme put into the game, and was eager to play it!

Ellen Caroline wrote:
In Lewis & Clark you're actually going down the rivers they traversed and setting up camp each night. In Discoveries you're changing a foot die into an Indian die. How thematic is that?


In L&C, I'm trying to acquire cards so that I can build an engine so I can progress further on a scoring track. How thematic is that? In Lewis & Clark, I'm ONLY trying to reach the Pacific. In Discoveries, I'm exploring, I'm conducting scientific research, and I'm trying to establish alliances with the aboriginal nations.

I LOVE both games, and I'm impressed with how thematic they are; BUT, I nevertheless find Discoveries to be the better themed game and the less abstract.
 
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