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Subject: Workers blocking mechs and characters? Too much? rss

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Timotej Velkavrh
Slovenia
Ig
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Hi everyone,

I played two games of Scythe today, first a two player game and then a three player game when we were joined by another friend. I thoroughly enjoyed the game, the artwork itself is amazing and the pieces quality is also very good. Which brings me to the "issue" of workers blocking everything from moving...

First scenario: My friend wanted to attack me in the factory and he noticed I had a worker in front which prevented him from moving through. He had a force of two mechs and a character which were now blocked by the one simple worker, meaning he would either have to move into the space and "effectively" lose a turn, lose 1 popularity and my worker would go back or move around losing a turn again. I said that can't be right so we checked the rules and it turned out that you have to stop every time you move into a space containing an enemy worker?!

Second scenario: when we finished the game, two players had deployed all their workers in strategically important spaces in order to occupy them and to prevent anyone from moving through. Now to me it would make sense to have to stop when encountering enemy mechs or the character but not to stop every time you encounter a simple worker. Furthermore, I was also using a combined force of several mechs working together as a "strike force" and found myself frustratingly stopped every time I wanted to cross a space containing one worker. Is it just me or is this game designed to penalise grouping units together in order to use more cards in combat?

Maybe I'm being too influenced by other games but to me it doesn't make sense that mechs and characters would have to stop every time they encounter a worker. Did you have the same problem as I did? I found the game to be a lot more constrained and less strategic due to players abusing the workers for stopping advances dead in their tracks. We were also discussing a possible house rule whereas a single worker only blocks one mech or a character so you'd have to group them to prevent the opponents from advancing with several units through a territory. Feedback is appreciated
 
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Sky Zero
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Move mech 1, kick worker off hex, move mech 2 and roll on through. That's one turn. Is there something I'm missing in your explanation?

EDIT: a wall of workers to punch through is a defensive strategy.
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Matthew Peckham
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With the adjacent tunnel spaces around the factory, I find it's usually quite easy (especially if you have a factory card and can take a 3-hex move) to navigate around lone workers and approach from a different angle!
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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St. Louis
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The positioning of workers is a hugely strategic element of Scythe. It gives them more of a purpose than just producing resources. You are playing correctly in that the movement of your character or mech ends if it enters a territory containing any enemy unit, including a worker.

The one thing you might be missing is that each part of your Move action is separate. So, if you have speed, you might move your character into a territory to clear out the worker(s), then move a mech through that territory.
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A J
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jameystegmaier wrote:
The positioning of workers is a hugely strategic element of Scythe. It gives them more of a purpose than just producing resources. You are playing correctly in that the movement of your character or mech ends if it enters a territory containing any enemy unit, including a worker.

The one thing you might be missing is that each part of your Move action is separate. So, if you have speed, you might move your character into a territory to clear out the worker(s), then move a mech through that territory.


Whoa, whoa, whoa...have we been playing it wrong this whole time? I thought you had to complete all movements before whatever on the tile got resolved? So are you saying that only applies to combat (and encounters)? So I can clear out an unescorted worker at the end of one mech's turn before my next move?
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Joseph Cochran
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jameystegmaier wrote:
The one thing you might be missing is that each part of your Move action is separate. So, if you have speed, you might move your character into a territory to clear out the worker(s), then move a mech through that territory.


I thought that you got to move all of your pieces before combat. Then I went and read the rules again. That part about combat is true, but it's ALSO true that workers are retreated at the end of one unit's action. That's not something that was clear to me in the rules, so thanks for pointing out that distinction!
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Drew Lawson
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Hmm, on Page 11 of the rulebook, under the Controlled by Workers blurb, it says that workers retreat "after you've completed your Move action". Wouldn't that render the tactic above invalid since you have to finish the action before moving workers?
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Tommy Dean
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You have completed your "move action". I moved the character in. move done. Workers retreat. Now I take my NEXT "move action". It is written singular and there are multiple move actions.
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A J
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ozjesting wrote:
You have completed your "move action". I moved the character in. move done. Workers retreat. Now I take my NEXT "move action". It is written singular and there are multiple move actions.


I can see how it's done, but still rather confusing because one can interpret the entire "Top Row Action" as a move action. It's not apparently clear that there are several move actions within a top row action. One too many uses of the word "action" to describe two different things.
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David Taranto
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ayejae wrote:
ozjesting wrote:
You have completed your "move action". I moved the character in. move done. Workers retreat. Now I take my NEXT "move action". It is written singular and there are multiple move actions.


I can see how it's done, but still rather confusing because one can interpret the entire "Top Row Action" as a move action. It's not apparently clear that there are several move actions within a top row action. One too many uses of the word "action" to describe two different things.


It does appear from the wording that the sending back of workers functions differently than Combat (which must be resolved specifically "after you have completed all Move actions" [plural])

Edit: At the same time! In the Combat section:

"Combat may happen at the end of a player's Move action (after all units have moved but before the player takes a bottom-row action). ... It's possible for this to happen on multiple territories."

So a Top-Row Move action (collective) is separate from the individual green-benefit-square Move action. At least the intent of the rules has been cleared up in this thread!
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David Combs
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In the Highlighted Rules section it says:
MOVE ACTION: You must move different units (not the same unit multiple times.) You may choose only to use part of the Move action if you only want to move one unit. A mech can transport workers as part of it movement, then one of those workers could also move.

So I take this to mean that moving just one unit is only part of the whole move action and the MOVE action doesn't end until you move your second (or third if you upgraded) unit or you decide you only want to move that one unit.

So the "Move Actions" in the combat section is either a typo and resolving combat/encounters and retreating workers happen after the MOVE action (therefore retreating workers doesn't happen until after all movements), or the plural is correct and "move action" in both these sections refer to a MOVEMENT and not the actual MOVE action.

If the latter is correct then: 1 MOVE action involves up to 2 MOVEMENTS. Retreating workers happens after you complete a movement, and combat and encounters happen after you have completed all movements for the action.
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Jamey Stegmaier
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"1 MOVE action involves up to 2 MOVEMENTS." Yes, that it correct.
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David Combs
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jameystegmaier wrote:
"1 MOVE action involves up to 2 MOVEMENTS." Yes, that it correct.

So retreating workers happens after a movement and combat/encounters happen after a move action.
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Greg
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jameystegmaier wrote:
"1 MOVE action involves up to 2 MOVEMENTS." Yes, that it correct.


Is this 2 movements for the base 2 movements, and you get 3 movements after upgrading? Thereby 1 move action involving up to 3 movements?
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Jamey Stegmaier
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"So retreating workers happens after a movement and combat/encounters happen after a move action."

Correct!

"Is this 2 movements for the base 2 movements, and you get 3 movements after upgrading? Thereby 1 move action involving up to 3 movements?"

Exactly!
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Timotej Velkavrh
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Hi Jamey,

thank you for your clarification, this makes much more sense now. I feel you've made it very clear to everyone now how movement works and you're absolutely right in saying there is much to positioning the workers.

Well I don't know about you guys but I'm off now to looking at new tactics for my workers
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Ian Liddle
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Worker walls are one of my favorite tactics. I've found it especially useful for Polania; you can chase encounters a bit more safely with a handful of workers preventing Anna and Wojtek from getting swarmed by combat units.

The only downside is that without a mech on home base, they're a bear to get back in action.
 
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Frank Hamrick
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Hahma wrote:
jameystegmaier wrote:
"1 MOVE action involves up to 2 MOVEMENTS." Yes, that it correct.


Is this 2 movements for the base 2 movements, and you get 3 movements after upgrading? Thereby 1 move action involving up to 3 movements?


Seems to me this is true. A complete "Move Action" includes
A) Up to 2 "unit movement segments" (3 if upgraded). In each segment of the
Move Action a player may move either:
- a single worker
- a single mech carrying any number of workers and/or resources
- your Hero character
B) each "movement segment" consists of moving a unit 1 hex (2 hexes for a
mech or character with +1 speed)
C) no worker may move (apart from a mech) into a hex with an opposing unit
D) when a mech or character enters a hex with a worker (and NO opposing Mech
or Character) it stops and immediately causes the unprotected worker(s)
to retreat immediately befor the next "movement segment" during that
action
E) the next "movement segment" then occurs as above (if there are still
"Movement segments" remaining)
F) after ALL "movement segments" are complete combat occurs between any
opposing combat units In the same hex(es)

I realize this is unnecessarily wordy, but I believe it fully explains the movement action sequence in question. Please correct me where I have it wrong.
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John Bruns
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Frank Hamrick wrote:
Hahma wrote:
jameystegmaier wrote:
"1 MOVE action involves up to 2 MOVEMENTS." Yes, that it correct.


Is this 2 movements for the base 2 movements, and you get 3 movements after upgrading? Thereby 1 move action involving up to 3 movements?


Seems to me this is true. A complete "Move Action" includes
A) Up to 2 "unit movement segments" (3 if upgraded). In each segment of the
Move Action a player may move either:
- a single worker
- a single mech carrying any number of workers and/or resources
- your Hero character
B) each "movement segment" consists of moving a unit 1 hex (2 hexes for a
mech or character with +1 speed)
C) no worker may move (apart from a mech) into a hex with an opposing unit
D) when a mech or character enters a hex with a worker (and NO opposing Mech
or Character) it stops and immediately causes the unprotected worker(s)
to retreat immediately befor the next "movement segment" during that
action
E) the next "movement segment" then occurs as above (if there are still
"Movement segments" remaining)
F) after ALL "movement segments" are complete combat occurs between any
opposing combat units In the same hex(es)

I realize this is unnecessarily wordy, but I believe it fully explains the movement action sequence in question. Please correct me where I have it wrong.

Add that each movement segment must be a unique primary unit.
 
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Frank Hamrick
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tal342 wrote:
Frank Hamrick wrote:
Hahma wrote:
jameystegmaier wrote:
"1 MOVE action involves up to 2 MOVEMENTS." Yes, that it correct.


Is this 2 movements for the base 2 movements, and you get 3 movements after upgrading? Thereby 1 move action involving up to 3 movements?


Seems to me this is true. A complete "Move Action" includes
A) Up to 2 "unit movement segments" (3 if upgraded). In each segment of the
Move Action a player may move either:
- a single worker
- a single mech carrying any number of workers and/or resources
- your Hero character
B) each "movement segment" consists of moving a unit 1 hex (2 hexes for a
mech or character with +1 speed)
C) no worker may move (apart from a mech) into a hex with an opposing unit
D) when a mech or character enters a hex with a worker (and NO opposing Mech
or Character) it stops and immediately causes the unprotected worker(s)
to retreat immediately befor the next "movement segment" during that
action
E) the next "movement segment" then occurs as above (if there are still
"Movement segments" remaining)
F) after ALL "movement segments" are complete combat occurs between any
opposing combat units In the same hex(es)

I realize this is unnecessarily wordy, but I believe it fully explains the movement action sequence in question. Please correct me where I have it wrong.

Add that each movement segment must be a unique primary unit.


John, I believe that A) explains that. Perhaps I didn't make it clear?
 
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Sky Zero
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We actually played with a slight variation to movement our first game and have kept it with the change. The way we play is that combat may be triggered immediately if the attacker chooses to do so. It allows other mechs to blitzkrieg if you can win a key battle and still have movement points left to pressure further into someone's territory.
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Torgo Shuffle
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So in this image, Jamey, Rusviet (with Riverwalk and Speed) would be able to move one mech into the forest, evicting the Nordic worker, and then the 2nd mech could move through into the mountain hex unimpeded on the same turn, right?

We've been playing it safe/wrong!
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Frank Hamrick
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(I know I'm not Jamie, but I think you are correct! I've been playing it wrong as well. Ejection is not 'combat,' but it does stop a single mech/character to cause the ejection. Then other units may move into or (if having +1 speed) through the hex to one beyond. Jamie can correct me if I'm wrong.
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Wouter De Haes
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jameystegmaier wrote:
"1 MOVE action involves up to 2 MOVEMENTS." Yes, that it correct.


jameystegmaier wrote:
"So retreating workers happens after a movement and combat/encounters happen after a move action."

Correct!

"Is this 2 movements for the base 2 movements, and you get 3 movements after upgrading? Thereby 1 move action involving up to 3 movements?"

Exactly!


If the ruling here is the one intended by the devs (workers are ejected immediately after a movement, not after the entire move action) and the move action is the full set of all movements on a turn (as stated in quotes above), then the wording in the rulebook on page 11 is honestly not clear.

"If your character and/or mech move into a territory controlled by an opponent’s workers (and no other units), their movement ends and they cannot move again this turn. After you’ve completed your Move action, each of the opponent’s workers on that territory immediately retreats to their faction’s home base, leaving behind any resource tokens."

Based on the rulebook, I would think that workers are only sent back at the end of the complete move action. The highlighted sentence above clearly makes a distinction between the end of the attacking unit's movement and the whole Move action. Needs a correction imho.
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Gustav W
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Scythe Rulebook page 11 wrote:
After you’ve completed your Move
action, each of the opponent’s workers on that
territory immediately retreats to their faction’s home
base

The worker(s) do not retreat until the end of the action. If this is not intended the rules need to be changed.
 
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