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7 Wonders: Babel» Forums » Rules

Subject: Babylon Side B and Great Projects rss

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A J
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I know the rulebook states that players may not participate multiple times during a given turn in a Great Project.

However, if I'm using Babylon Side B with a 2nd level wonder (allows player to play the last card instead of discarding), can I participate twice in a Great Project if both cards are the same color?
 
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Antanas
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I don't have the rules with myself at the moment, but from what I remember, Babylon allows you to play two cards (which essentially means two turns). so I'd say - yes.

Although sometimes it can be tricky. Suppose there's only one token left. Then based on the reasoning above, you could not take the additional one from the box for the second card.
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Thomas Moutel
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I'd say yes too, unless there's no more available token when playing the second card.
One other question is: can you use the same resources for both cards? I'd say yes also, it's like playing 2 turns in my mind.
 
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Antanas
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To sum-up both questions on how we're playing Babylon B:

A. Firstly there are two concept statements that have to be taken into account before answering the questions
A1 - Playing two cards essentially means two turns
A2 - Both cards are played at once (which is a general contradiction for A1) in a no particular order

Q1. Can I participate twice in a Great Project if both cards are the same color?
Given the statement A1 - yes, but as long as there are enough tokens on the card. Other players get priority before your second cards triggers its token request.
Example 1: 2 Tokens left on the brown project card. Babylon plays two brown cards, no-one else plays brown cards. Babylon collects both tokens.
Example 1: 2 Tokens left on the brown project card. Babylon plays two brown cards, two other players play brown cards too. Babylon and both other players receive 1 token each. Babylon does not get their second token.

Q2. Can you use the same resources for both cards?
Given the statement A1 - yes. However, based on the statement A2, you must have enough resources to build both cards before either of the cards is built. I.e. you cannot use a resource from first card to build your second card and you cannot use coins received from the first card to help you buy resources for the second card.

I'm in no way saying it's the correct way to play and everyone must play like that. It's just the way that makes most sense.
 
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lebryant wrote:
To sum-up both questions on how we're playing Babylon B:

A. Firstly there are two concept statements that have to be taken into account before answering the questions
A1 - Playing two cards essentially means two turns
A2 - Both cards are played at once (which is a general contradiction for A1) in a no particular order

Q1. Can I participate twice in a Great Project if both cards are the same color?
Given the statement A1 - yes, but as long as there are enough tokens on the card. Other players get priority before your second cards triggers its token request.
Example 1: 2 Tokens left on the brown project card. Babylon plays two brown cards, no-one else plays brown cards. Babylon collects both tokens.
Example 1: 2 Tokens left on the brown project card. Babylon plays two brown cards, two other players play brown cards too. Babylon and both other players receive 1 token each. Babylon does not get their second token.

Q2. Can you use the same resources for both cards?
Given the statement A1 - yes. However, based on the statement A2, you must have enough resources to build both cards before either of the cards is built. I.e. you cannot use a resource from first card to build your second card and you cannot use coins received from the first card to help you buy resources for the second card.

I'm in no way saying it's the correct way to play and everyone must play like that. It's just the way that makes most sense.


Ok, playing it like two different turns makes sense to me. I see a consensus that both cards can allow participation of a Great Project.

However, if we are to take that stance, I'm not sure it follows that you can't use resources from card 1 to build card 2. The rulebook even clarifies that you can even use card 1 to build that level 2 wonder in order to trigger the ability to even use card 2. So, it certainly looks like it's 2 completely separate turns entirely.
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Auxiliary Axis
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I would say yes, as Great Projects checks for the color when a card is played, and a card could be interpreted as a turn.

Actually this makes me wonder something else that's similar to this: how does contribution work if Menagerie is out, you play Courtesan Guild to copy a Solomon to dig for a Guild card? Unlike Babylon, this is all in the same turn.
[I totally forgot if cards you dig from the discard pile can contribute, since Great Projects checks for color when played.]

The chances of this happening is slim to none, but it's entirely possible.

The timing would be worse with Olympia B copying courtesan, but that's at the end of the game, so there's no contributing opportunity.



The other thing I noticed is the point about the "two turns, but if the 1st turn has all the contribution tokens gone, you can't contribute" is this: if someone plays a debt card on the final pick.

Usually you would "plan both contributions" but because debt hits on the final pick, you can "see" if you take debt tokens or pay coins therefore being "unable" to contribute.

It's a strange timing since the contributions are the instant after you flip to avoid backtracking, but when you get an extra pick, you can oddly backtrack (or just take debt tokens in full).

Or even worse, if Giant Trebuchet is out, and your extra pick determines if the project is complete, can you "take time to think" whether or not you want to complete the project? By the time you technically use your extra pick, you have full information of the board from the final picks. This is much worse if trade or money generation is involved.


How do you guys play Babylon B?
Do you allow:
1) Trash last pick to allow trade for the final card?
2) Allow incoming traded money on the last pick to pick the final card (when beforehand you know it's not possible?)
3) Play a money generating card to get money you need to ... well, contribute? (Ex: Arena then Haven, when Grand Bazaar is out. Even more screwy if you don't have two ore and need to trade for the contribution)

I find these issues more troublesome than extra pick contribution.
 
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