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The Oracle of Delphi» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can you perform tasks (statues, monsters) you have no Zeus tile for? rss

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Ori Avtalion
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I understand that to complete the Zeus tiles for raising statues, they all have to be of different colors.

Is it allowed to load/raise statues of colors you already collected? This might block other players from ever finishing that Zeus goal tile.

I assume it's not allowed for this reason, but the rules don't mention it.

Same with monsters - are you allowed to fight monsters of colors you have no Zeus tiles for?
 
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Łukasz Małecki
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You can't do that and it's mentioned in the rules on page 6:
"No color can be chosen twice for a certain task."
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Jay Cat Five
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To clarify further, you cannot do a task of same color more than once, but you COULD do a task you don't have a Zeus tile for, as it is also written on page 6: "It is unwise to complete tasks which are not depicted on your Zeus tiles."
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Ori Avtalion
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rednar wrote:
You can't do that and it's mentioned in the rules on page 6:
"No color can be chosen twice for a certain task."

I took that to mean that you can perform the action, but you won't get to discard a Zeus tile.

Below that it says it is "unwise to complete tasks which are not depicted on your Zeus Tiles", which suggests it's possible.
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Łukasz Małecki
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It is indeed possible to do tasks you don't have Zeus Tiles for, but not of a color you already once did. So yes, you can raise 4th statue (of a color you didn't raise before!), but that won't block anyone from the game.
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Ralph Bruhn
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rednar wrote:
It is indeed possible to do tasks you don't have Zeus Tiles for, but not of a color you already once did. So yes, you can raise 4th statue (of a color you didn't raise before!), but that won't block anyone from the game.
It maybe possible, but it doesn't make sense. Why should you do that? It costs action and doesn't bring you any benefit.
 
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Bartosz Popow
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Well, you could load a good somebody needs and never unload, thus blocking him from victory, right?
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Łukasz Małecki
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That's stretching it a bit I think. To me, the rule "No color can be chosen twice for a certain task" means you can't load goods of the same color you already loaded in the past. The rule doesn't say "You can never COMPLETE a task of a color you already completed" and loading goods of a certain color is also "choosing a color for a certain task". At least that's how I see it.

And besides, I really doubt Mr. Feld would intentionally allow players to block other players from victory in a game like this.

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Bartosz Popow
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I'm with you, rednar. I'm certain it is meant to be played like that.
 
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Ori Avtalion
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I understand the spirit of the rules.

My concern is the rules, as currently phrased, can be interpreted as treating both the case of "load a statue color you've already erected" (bad) and "Fight a monster that's not on anyone's Zeus tiles" (harmless) as "unwise", rather than outright forbidding the scenario that can block other players.

Some inattentive (even foolish?) players might miss this rule. The restriction can be mentioned in the Actions section, above "Load Statue", "Fight Monster", "Load an Offering" actions.


Regarding monsters, if there's no benefit to fighting monsters that are not on anyone's Zeus tiles, can they be removed during setup?
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Łukasz Małecki
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SaltyHorse wrote:
Regarding monsters, if there's no benefit to fighting monsters that are not on anyone's Zeus tiles, can they be removed during setup?

No, because there's also a task to destroy a "white" monster, so a monster of ANY color (other than the other 2 colors drawn during setup). Keeping all of them on the board gives you a nice choice of which monster to destroy (which one is closer to your goals etc.).
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David L.
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If Zeus tiles are to be returned to the box once completed, how do you keep track of which colors you've used for each task?
 
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Łukasz Małecki
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- Shrines: color is irrelevant, all shrines are white, only the picture on the tile counts;
- Statues: when raising a Statue, you take a Companion card of the same color;
- Monsterts: you store defeated Monsters on your player board;
- Offerings: all players start with the same set of Offerings colors, so you can just look them up in player areas of your opponents or on the board (delivered Offerings stay there, so you can always see which colors have been delivered).
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David L.
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rednar wrote:
- Shrines: color is irrelevant, all shrines are white, only the picture on the tile counts;
- Statues: when raising a Statue, you take a Companion card of the same color;
- Monsterts: you store defeated Monsters on your player board;
- Offerings: all players start with the same set of Offerings colors, so you can just look them up in player areas of your opponents or on the board (delivered Offerings stay there, so you can always see which colors have been delivered).

That makes sense. Thanks.
 
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Seth Jaffee
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rednar wrote:
- Shrines: color is irrelevant, all shrines are white, only the picture on the tile counts;
- Statues: when raising a Statue, you take a Companion card of the same color;
- Monsterts: you store defeated Monsters on your player board;
- Offerings: all players start with the same set of Offerings colors, so you can just look them up in player areas of your opponents or on the board (delivered Offerings stay there, so you can always see which colors have been delivered).

This last one isn't exactly true because of the "deliver any colored cube" task.

It is fairly easy to remember which cube you have delivered, but what I may start doing when teaching is have players keep the cube they delivered, then it's perfectly clear, and nobody can forget.
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Łukasz Małecki
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But if you complete the "any color" offering task, you will be left solely with the "specific color" offering tasks (since there's only 1 "any color" task) and in that case, you don't have to remember which one you have actually delivered.
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Seth Jaffee
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rednar wrote:
But if you complete the "any color" offering task, you will be left solely with the "specific color" offering tasks (since there's only 1 "any color" task) and in that case, you don't have to remember which one you have actually delivered.

I guess that's true, so long as you don't deliver, say, a blue for "any color" and still need a blue.
 
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Łukasz Małecki
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But if you deliver blue cube to the temple, and you still have "blue offering" task and "any color offering" task, then you will always complete the "blue offering" task first (completing the other would block you from winning the game, because you couldn't deliver blue one for the second time). And since you have all the uncompleted Zeus tasks in front of you, you know which one you need to deliver.
 
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Seth Jaffee
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rednar wrote:
But if you deliver blue cube to the temple, and you still have "blue offering" task and "any color offering" task, then you will always complete the "blue offering" task first (completing the other would block you from winning the game, because you couldn't deliver blue one for the second time). And since you have all the uncompleted Zeus tasks in front of you, you know which one you need to deliver.

I understand. However, if you DID deliver a blue cube and discard your "any color" tile, then there'd be no way to mark that you can't still deliver a blue cube.

The rules don't appear to actually say you MUST discard the blue cube tile and not the "any color" tile (though perhaps they should), it's just an obviously better thing to do.

If this were a digital game, the computer would let you click the "any color" tile, but then you would be unable to win the game.

As it turns out this is a semantic point, it's obvious once you understand the game. It's just not obvious when you're trying to learn the game, and everybody has to learn the game sometime!
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Ralph Bruhn
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sedjtroll wrote:
rednar wrote:
But if you complete the "any color" offering task, you will be left solely with the "specific color" offering tasks (since there's only 1 "any color" task) and in that case, you don't have to remember which one you have actually delivered.

I guess that's true, so long as you don't deliver, say, a blue for "any color" and still need a blue.
Very important: That's not allowed! You can't deliver the same color twice! In this case another player would not be able to deliver a blue Offering and would be out of the game and the game would be broken.
So the rule for the white tasks is not "any color", but "any color, but no color twice".
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Henk Verleye
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I agree.

The task of "offering" is described on page 6 as "load 1 offering on your ship and deliver it to the temple of the respective color".
So the two actions "load an offering" and "deliver an offering" combined make up one single task "offering", depicted on the Zeus tiles.

Therefore, the rule "no color can be chosen twice for a certain task" in my opinion forbids loading a second cube of the same color by the same player, as this would be the start of a second "offering" task with the same color.

This is particularly important for the case of offerings, because without this, one player could pick up two cubes of one of the mandatory offering colors, preventing one player from finishing (or two players if this were done a second time with the other mandatory offering color). Particularly a player with the boat with 4 storage spaces could be tempted to block the other players in this way.

The issue is not important for the task of raising statues, because there are no mandatory colors there, and there are plenty statues on the board, so nobody gets blocked. But the same logic applies: loading and delivering are part of the same task.
rednar wrote:
That's stretching it a bit I think. To me, the rule "No color can be chosen twice for a certain task" means you can't load goods of the same color you already loaded in the past. The rule doesn't say "You can never COMPLETE a task of a color you already completed" and loading goods of a certain color is also "choosing a color for a certain task". At least that's how I see it.

And besides, I really doubt Mr. Feld would intentionally allow players to block other players from victory in a game like this.

 
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Matthias M
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For me, the main problem is that "white" on the offering tasks does not mean "any color", but "any color minus two other colors which are randomly determined in setup". This is the root of all evil, especially when learning (or explaining!) the game. Not clear, easy to forget, counter-intuitive.

The main problem is that it is totally unnecessary. So I might even consider this bad game design, although I guess that many people will disagree.

Let me explain. All six colors are 99% symmetric. (With the 1% exception being their correlation to 6 different gods with individually different powers.) So why did the author include the "select two offering colors" as a special step in the setup, a setup which is rather intricate anyway? One could have defined two major offering colors instead, say blue and red, and then use striped yellow/pink/green/black icons instead of white on the third offering tile. This would both have avoided misunderstandings and made setup easier.

If everything is symmetric, you are always allowed to break the symmetry at one specific point of your choice without loss of generality. Of course, the current procedure looks more "variable", but it is just a set of color permutations of any arbitrarily chosen set of fixed major and minor offering colors (minus the negligable connection of offering colors to different gods via dice colors).
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