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The Oracle of Delphi» Forums » General

Subject: Setup made my head explode rss

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Chris Ruf
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Acworth
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I feel exhausted after reading about setup for this game. I had the same reaction to reading the Aquasphere rules. That game was okay, but forgettable. These games with long setups that are meant to be played in under 2 hours are starting to not seem worth it to me.
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Bartosz Popow
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Gdynia
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Ok.
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Brad103
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Skaneateles
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It's not that bad...only 25 steps are you're done!

I tend to agree though. There was a lot to go through (and even reread) for that setup section. Although, it could be fun building the map all together. Maybe after a few plays it'll become second nature. Just places cubes/meeples on the islands you know they go on.

The rest of the rules themselves seem a bit confusing as well. I get the actions you can take with the dice. But there are all these other rules about when and how you get favor tokens, and what you can use them on. Maybe another read through of the rules will make more sense.

Still, game looks really interesting to me.
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James Mathias
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I can't think of many Feld games without big setups. Maybe Roma, and The Speicherstadt.
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Chris Ruf
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jmathias wrote:
I can't think of many Feld games without big setups. Maybe Roma, and The Speicherstadt.


Burgundy isn't that bad. But I did have to buy little containers to sort the tiles to speed up the process.
 
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Brad103
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Skaneateles
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A good side to this though, is that with all these set up steps, there's a lot of variability, and therefore the possibility for more replayability.

Legend5555 wrote:
Burgundy isn't that bad. But I did have to buy little containers to sort the tiles to speed up the process.


I bought colored draw bags so Burgundy is pretty quick to setup now. Not sure of any good way to easily set up this game as it looks now, lots of moving parts.
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Łukasz Małecki
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Macao is not bad either. Honestly, the setup steps are extremely simple and fast. Build the board however you like, throw some cubes on the islands, throw some monsters on the islands etc. After a couple of games it will be all automatic - and in return you get lots of replayability, because the board will never look the same. For me, this is a HUGE thumb up, because I like to play my games plenty of times and Mr. Feld is the undisputed King of replayability (+70 plays of Burgundy, +50 of Macao, ~40 of Bora Bora...).

I also think Aquasphere setup is short. 10 minutes max? I think even less if two people do it.
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ode.
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Legend5555 wrote:
I feel exhausted after reading about setup for this game. I had the same reaction to reading the Aquasphere rules. That game was okay, but forgettable. These games with long setups that are meant to be played in under 2 hours are starting to not seem worth it to me.


Actually it is not that bad. Not more than with comparable games. With this game and it's modular board it seems a bit fiddly. I have seen Feld games with more cardboard tiles to handle...

If it is worth your while I cannot say. It is a typical euro style Feld game. Much cardboard, much wood, 90-120 minutes. The setup is done as quick as in other games this style. Once you know the game.

Sounds funny to me, though. Considering you never played it...

But I experienced this feedback earlier with games like this. After just reading a rule book PFD file it is hard to imagine the whole stuff. It's definitly something different when you have the game and all components in front of you.
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Feld Fan
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People reading/contributing to this thread (and others of its ilk) for the most part are (I am assuming) fans of Stefan Feld's games and should generally not be surprised by the components, set-up, etc., that is often the case with his games. Worst case scenario: you buy it, play it, hate it, and then sell/trade it. No harm done.
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Chris Ruf
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I do like most Felds. I just find as I game more that fiddly and/or long setups for short or medium letgth games are hard for me to justify. I wanna play them, but then think about setup and decide against it.
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Ralph Bruhn
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Legend5555 wrote:
I feel exhausted after reading about setup for this game. I had the same reaction to reading the Aquasphere rules. That game was okay, but forgettable. These games with long setups that are meant to be played in under 2 hours are starting to not seem worth it to me.
The problem with writing rules for such games is that you have to explain every tiny action in epic detail, because experience shows that not everything, which is obvious to most people, is obvious for all.

Almost everytime when you leave out a thing because of redundancy, there is coming someone who'll say "This one additional sentence wouldn't have hurt and would it have made easier to read".

And that's not only for the setup, it's also for the actions. You'll see: After you played Delphi for the first time, you won't understand why it takes so much space to write down the rules, because many of the things are really self-explaining and intuitive.

So don't worry: Just try it (or find somebody who explains it to you).
Especially the setup is done quick when all players help.
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Chris Ruf
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barandur wrote:
Legend5555 wrote:
I feel exhausted after reading about setup for this game. I had the same reaction to reading the Aquasphere rules. That game was okay, but forgettable. These games with long setups that are meant to be played in under 2 hours are starting to not seem worth it to me.
The problem with writing rules for such games is that you have to explain every tiny action in epic detail, because experience shows that not everything, which is obvious to most people, is obvious for all.

Almost everytime when you leave out a thing because of redundancy, there is coming someone who'll say "This one additional sentence wouldn't have hurt and would it have made easier to read".

And that's not only for the setup, it's also for the actions. You'll see: After you played Delphi for the first time, you won't understand why it takes so much space to write down the rules, because many of the things are really self-explaining and intuitive.

So don't worry: Just try it (or find somebody who explains it to you).
Especially the setup is done quick when all players help.


Not sure why you think I won't try it, or that what I'm saying is a absolute deal breaker. I understood the rules just fine. The game doesn't seem that complicated. But to me, the game just seems like a chore to setup.
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Mark Palframan
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Jupiter
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jmathias wrote:
I can't think of many Feld games without big setups. Maybe Roma, and The Speicherstadt.


Bruges?
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Jared
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Trajan, Castles, Bora Bora... lots of set up but would you ever want to make them simpler to save a minute or two on set up? Worth the extra investment!

It's like french onion soup, you can't rush and expect the good stuff!
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Robin Zigmond
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Legend5555 wrote:
I do like most Felds. I just find as I game more that fiddly and/or long setups for short or medium letgth games are hard for me to justify. I wanna play them, but then think about setup and decide against it.


Although it's not a Feld, Glass Road is the game instantly brought to my mind by this very reasonable complaint. It seems to be a good game, but it seriously takes 15-30 minutes to set up and then the same kind of time to play. The game just isn't good enough to justify only actually playing it for half the time it's on the table.

I don't have this problem with any of Feld's heavier games. They may take 15-20 minutes to set up, but that's more acceptable to me when the playtime is about 2 hours.
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FiNeX
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robinz wrote:
Although it's not a Feld, Glass Road is the game instantly brought to my mind by this very reasonable complaint. It seems to be a good game, but it seriously takes 15-30 minutes to set up [...]


Seriously? I've divided all the buildings and the tokens using a bunch of ziplocks, the set up time is about 5 minutes. Just remember to put away in order all the pieces (other 5 minutes).
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Robin Zigmond
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finex wrote:
robinz wrote:
Although it's not a Feld, Glass Road is the game instantly brought to my mind by this very reasonable complaint. It seems to be a good game, but it seriously takes 15-30 minutes to set up [...]


Seriously? I've divided all the buildings and the tokens using a bunch of ziplocks, the set up time is about 5 minutes. Just remember to put away in order all the pieces (other 5 minutes).


Yeah, you're right, I apologise for getting confused. My complaint with that game is similar but actually different - it's that the *rules explanation* takes as long as, or longer than, the game itself. There are a lot of rules to go through, and we play very infrequently, in part because of this issue.
 
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Peter Rustemeyer
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barandur wrote:

Almost everytime when you leave out a thing because of redundancy, there is coming someone who'll say "This one additional sentence wouldn't have hurt and would it have made easier to read".


One example: In the german version, I cannot find the turn order.

It's probably clockwise (because players get more tiles at the start of the game in clockwise order to combat a starting player advantage), but it's not mentioned at all in the following chapters.

A little sentence like "after step 3, the turn of the player on your left begins" or "turn order is clockwise" is missing.

 
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Łukasz Małecki
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English rules, top of page 6 ("Course of play"):
The Oracle of Delphi is played in rounds, with each player taking 1 turn in clockwise order.
Not sure about the German rules, but check it there.
 
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Peter Rustemeyer
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rednar wrote:
English rules, top of page 6 ("Course of play"):
The Oracle of Delphi is played in rounds, with each player taking 1 turn in clockwise order.
Not sure about the German rules, but check it there.


German version: "Das Spiel verläuft in Runden, in denen jeder Spieler je 1 Spielzug hat."
(The Game is played in rounds, with each player taking 1 turn)

This wasn't a rule question, it was an example of "maybe you cut one redundant sentence/information too much".
 
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Ralph Bruhn
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PeterRustemeyer wrote:
rednar wrote:
English rules, top of page 6 ("Course of play"):
The Oracle of Delphi is played in rounds, with each player taking 1 turn in clockwise order.
Not sure about the German rules, but check it there.


German version: "Das Spiel verläuft in Runden, in denen jeder Spieler je 1 Spielzug hat."
(The Game is played in rounds, with each player taking 1 turn)

This wasn't a rule question, it was an example of "maybe you cut one redundant sentence/information too much".
This part has not been cut off, it somehow got lost in the German version - my fault blush
Nevertheless I'm sure that nobody is going to play this wrong, don't you think?
At least you can get this information from page 4, #2 and #3, where directions are mentioned.
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Peter Rustemeyer
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barandur wrote:
This part has not been cut off, it somehow got lost in the German version - my fault blush
Nevertheless I'm sure that nobody is going to play this wrong, don't you think?

I think most people will be doing it right.
Most people will probably not even think about it.

When I first read the rules, I expected a chapter somewhere that tells me about how the order of play is changed, like the little mechanic with the ships in Castles of Burgundy.
I expected the player who rolls the titan die would change during the game.
I expected the term "round" to be more meaningful. Like some setup would happen at the end of the round.
I expected something like this in the game, mainly because it's a Stefan Feld game.

It was all "expectations"...
When no such chapter showed up, I didn't have too much trouble adjusting to "it's probably clockwise all the way".
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Ralf Arnemann
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Darmstadt
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PeterRustemeyer wrote:
In the german version, I cannot find the turn order.

Actually you don't need that information. You can play either way round, doesn't make any difference to game-play.

The Swiss normally play counter-clockwise, the Germans clockwise - both can be happy with this rulebook.
 
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