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Subject: MSRP $120? Is that right? rss

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Pete R.
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Is the base game $120? surprise

 
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William Chew
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Seems about right for what is included. CMON's latest dungeon crawler is MSRP $120 and FFG has been doing $100 big box games for quite a bit. The amount of stuff in Conan seems appropriate at that price.
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Strom40 wrote:
Is the base game $120? surprise



The market has grown so much in the last few years that several publishers are bound to test the waters on the upper limit of pricing for games. Defenders of the Last Stand has an MSRP of $110, and I haven't heard any complaints that it's not worth it. I am certain that Massive Darkness will also be viewed as a good value at $120.

If Massive Darkness and Conan both succeed at the $120 price point, then I fully expect that some new game from some publisher (probably FFG) will dip its toes on the $150 mark, and see what happens. After all, the majority of pledges for Zombicide Black Plague were at the "Knight" level, which was $150. Don't think for a moment that a lot of industry insiders didn't notice that. (Yes I used a double negative. So sue me. )



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GreenLaborMike wrote:
If Massive Darkness and Conan both succeed at the $120 price point, then I fully expect that some new game from some publisher (probably FFG) will dip its toes on the $150 mark, and see what happens. After all, the majority of pledges for Zombicide Black Plague were at the "Knight" level, which was $150. Don't think for a moment that a lot of industry insiders didn't notice that. (Yes I used a double negative. So sue me.

Cthulhu Wars

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The Game Steward
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Dormammu wrote:
GreenLaborMike wrote:
If Massive Darkness and Conan both succeed at the $120 price point, then I fully expect that some new game from some publisher (probably FFG) will dip its toes on the $150 mark, and see what happens. After all, the majority of pledges for Zombicide Black Plague were at the "Knight" level, which was $150. Don't think for a moment that a lot of industry insiders didn't notice that. (Yes I used a double negative. So sue me.

Cthulhu Wars

Kingdom Death: Monster

Has already happened.


Very true. I should have remembered both of those!

Although my understanding is that the bulk of sales for both of them have come from Kickstarter sales, and KDM only sells through their own website. It remains to be seen whether such an expensive game can thrive through traditional retail distribution channels. Cthulhu Wars has definitely started down that road, but it's still a bit of a question mark if it will continue to have legs in retail.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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$120 is not that unusual a pricepoint for a game these days...
 
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Pete R.
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I agree this is where the industry is heading but the $120 MSRP took me by surprise.

Conan's miniatures are not that great and you get 74 total. Look at the examples given above Massive Darkness (unbelievable miniatures) totals 95 (I believe) and C Wars clicks in at 72 mini's but most are not static posed Soliders but BIG and unique sculpts. Looking at the number and quality of miniatures for Conan, I'm confident in saying the quality isn't on par with CMON or Games Workshop.

As a fan of Conan, I hope this high price doesn't hurt sales. One hundred & twenty dollars is playing with the big boys - I hope the quality of sculpts are there as the number of miniatures (and variety) need to be comparable to similar games in that price point.
 
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Joe Procopio
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I'm afraid I don't see how the Conan sculpt is inferior to the Massive Darkness one you describe as "unbelievable." These look very comparable in detail and execution. Maybe you prefer the character design or aesthetic of Massive Darkness (I find it a bit cartoony), but I think you'd be hard pressed to claim the level of craft in the sculpt of these is different.
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Strom40 wrote:
Conan's miniatures are not that great and you get 74 total. Look at the examples given above Massive Darkness (unbelievable miniatures) totals 95 (I believe) and C Wars clicks in at 72 mini's but most are not static posed Soliders but BIG and unique sculpts. Looking at the number and quality of miniatures for Conan, I'm confident in saying the quality isn't on par with CMON or Games Workshop.


If you're talking about retail pricing of the base sets, then both Massive Darkness and Conan are comparable: 75/74 minis. 5/6 large monsters. you could chalk up the slight difference due to licensing fees Monolith has to pay to Conan Properties (or whoever holds the licensing rights nowadays).

Also: the miniatures themselves : Judging from photos of the final product, the Conan minis aren't any worse than Z:BP or MD. They do have a different aesthetic, but that doesn't = not as good.

I wouldn't put Games Workshop in as a comparison since their minis are using a different hard plastic, plus you need to assemble them, plus they are the ones that set the standard for everyone else. I'd say GW minis are the ones to beat. But Conan and (assuming the quality is the same as Z:BP) Massive Darkness seem about equal.
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Salvador Bernadó
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jvincentp wrote:




I'm afraid I don't see how the Conan sculpt is inferior to the Massive Darkness one you describe as "unbelievable." These look very comparable is detail and execution. Maybe you prefer the character design or aesthetic of Massive Darkness (I find it a bit cartoony), but I think you'd be hard pressed to claim the level of craft in the sculpt of these is different.


I haven't seen yet any Conan miniature in person but the one you show seems to be very good. Much better in detail than those in the cmon games.
Although I'm afraid that the miniature on the photo is the master used to make the mold. I hope the process they use maintains all those details.
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Neil Edmonds
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The board game industry has already taken advantage of cost-savings made available by telecommunications and offshoring. You've got American-designed games featuring artwork from illustrators in Europe and Asia that are manufactured in China and shipped around the world. There's no place to go with prices except up.

Games have a high elasticity of demand (sensitivity to price) - and often ship in low print runs making unit costs high for publishers - which is why many consumers on BGG complains about prices being "too high" for game X because game Y is priced differently. Sadly some of those same consumers forget these facts about game publishing in the race to pillory games that don't have quality miniatures/artwork/cardstock.
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Bernado wrote:

I haven't seen yet any Conan miniature in person but the one you show seems to be very good. Much better in detail than those in the cmon games.
Although I'm afraid that the miniature on the photo is the master used to make the mold. I hope the process they use maintains all those details.


Some production images here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/806316071/conan/posts/1... although small pics they do look comparable to cmon zombicide, they are made by the same manufacturer I believe. I'm sure they will be great and paint up nice.
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Mike B Canada wrote:
they are made by the same manufacturer I believe. I'm sure they will be great and paint up nice.

Yes. And yes (I've seen them in person).
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Pete R.
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Autoduelist wrote:
The board game industry has already taken advantage of cost-savings made available by telecommunications and offshoring. You've got American-designed games featuring artwork from illustrators in Europe and Asia that are manufactured in China and shipped around the world. There's no place to go with prices except up.

Games have a high elasticity of demand (sensitivity to price) - and often ship in low print runs making unit costs high for publishers - which is why many consumers on BGG complains about prices being "too high" for game X because game Y is priced differently. Sadly some of those same consumers forget these facts about game publishing in the race to pillory games that don't have quality miniatures/artwork/cardstock.


Seriously? Questioning the MSRP is out of ignorance? Comparing comparably priced games in the same genre is simply because I "forgot" market demand & supply? Game elasticity? Your post may be the single most biggest pile of Stygian camel waste I have ever read on BBG.

As for not comparing Gameswork Shop - I think doing so makes my point. The MSRP is equal or close enough to GW similar genre boxed games. When you price your game in GW range it is very appropriate to compare value and quality.

We all have to evaluate if $120 is a price we are willing to pay for the game. Discussing the market impact and comparable priced games shouldn't be a negative - especially if you feel the value is equal or greater than the MSRP.

I don't think I forgot anything. Nope. Didn't forget anything.
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Wow. Escalation.

There's truth to the mention of elasticity of demand and low print run issues.

Strom40 wrote:
Autoduelist wrote:
The board game industry has already taken advantage of cost-savings made available by telecommunications and offshoring. You've got American-designed games featuring artwork from illustrators in Europe and Asia that are manufactured in China and shipped around the world. There's no place to go with prices except up.

Games have a high elasticity of demand (sensitivity to price) - and often ship in low print runs making unit costs high for publishers - which is why many consumers on BGG complains about prices being "too high" for game X because game Y is priced differently. Sadly some of those same consumers forget these facts about game publishing in the race to pillory games that don't have quality miniatures/artwork/cardstock.


Seriously? Questioning the MSRP is out of ignorance? Comparing comparably priced games in the same genre is simply because I "forgot" market demand & supply? Game elasticity? Your post may be the single most biggest pile of Stygian camel waste I have ever read on BBG.

As for not comparing Gameswork Shop - I think doing so makes my point. The MSRP is equal or close enough to GW similar genre boxed games. When you price your game in GW range it is very appropriate to compare value and quality.

We all have to evaluate if $120 is a price we are willing to pay for the game. Discussing the market impact and comparable priced games shouldn't be a negative - especially if you feel the value is equal or greater than the MSRP.

I don't think I forgot anything. Nope. Didn't forget anything.
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Neil Edmonds
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Actually, you've just proven my point. The demand for games is highly sensitive to price as your own comments fully illustrate. If this game cost $40 less, then this conversation wouldn't be happening.

Why do games of similar prices have different levels of quality (artwork, miniatures, etc.)? Most people would attribute this to malice on the publishers part ("They suck at their jobs"), but there's more to the equation than that type of simplistic reasoning. Production lot size and the ability to endure smaller profit margins because you have other product lines keeping your company afloat makes a big difference.


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Strom40 wrote:

Conan's miniatures are not that great and you get 74 total. Look at the examples given above Massive Darkness (unbelievable miniatures) totals 95 (I believe) and C Wars clicks in at 72 mini's but most are not static posed Soliders but BIG and unique sculpts. Looking at the number and quality of miniatures for Conan, I'm confident in saying the quality isn't on par with CMON or Games Workshop.


You have a lot of confidence in an objectionably false statement. The miniatures are the same as Massive Darkness. The exact same in terms of detail.

Massive Darkness poses were so static I thought the game was a fantasy setting tea party when I first saw the pictures.
 
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Pete R.
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I stand by all my posts and opinions. The comparasion to comparable games will continue. Conan has to prove it is a $120 game compared to other similarly priced games. The quality, gameplay and replayability has to be worth the investment. I think for an episodic game a lower entry price point would've made more sense (excluding Kickdtarter backers for the extras). I hope the game sells great and I will buy and play it. cool
 
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Neil Edmonds
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There's nothing wrong with comparing games based on price as a consumer. It's your money after all and price is supposed to be a reflection of value. If you don't care about other factors like the setting, game rules, etc and miniatures & artwork are your biggest concerns, it's an equal comparison.

What I'm against is ascribing *value* judgments about a publisher's competence / motives because there are other factors - like print run sizes, better access to distributors, etc. - that play a bigger role in why one game priced at $120 has better miniatures or artwork than another game priced at $120.

I know a way to make all board games have great artwork and miniatures; unfortunately, because of the small demand / print run size for most board games, they'd have an MSRP of $175 dollars or more and wouldn't sell very well because of consumer's price sensitivity. Games like Cthulhu Wars for example - truly the expensive high-performance sports car of gaming - are the exception to the rule and even Sandy Petersen has said retailers won't carry every product SKU of Cthulhu Wars because they can't sell the product.
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Autoduelist wrote:
There's nothing wrong with comparing games based on price as a consumer. It's your money after all and price is supposed to be a reflection of value. If you don't care about other factors like the setting, game rules, etc and miniatures & artwork are your biggest concerns, it's an equal comparison.

What I'm against is ascribing *value* judgments about a publisher's competence / motives because there are other factors - like print run sizes, better access to distributors, etc. - that play a bigger role in why one game priced at $120 has better miniatures or artwork than another game priced at $120.

I know a way to make all board games have great artwork and miniatures; unfortunately, because of the small demand / print run size for most board games, they'd have an MSRP of $175 dollars or more and wouldn't sell very well because of consumer's price sensitivity. Games like Cthulhu Wars for example - truly the expensive high-performance sports car of gaming - are the exception to the rule and even Sandy Petersen has said retailers won't carry every product SKU of Cthulhu Wars because they can't sell the product.


Neil - go read your first post. You suggest I am ridiculing or attacking publicly the Conan game (and value) out of ignorance. That's elitist bs - as I called it in my post above. The question is valid and debateable and to demean the question because - in your eyes - I'm simply ignorant of numerous factors is really one of the most elitist posts I have ever read. I'm kinda ashamed it was thumbed (as a big thumber myself). It's this kind of dismissive opinion that hurts discussions - and this is a forum!

Then you ascribe value as insider knowledge exclusively - as you define it? This is a forum and I'm glad you feel so much more knowledgeable then a gamer like me who questions a ridiculosly high MSRP. This is at the high end of boardgame/miniature games - not many are over $120. The decision to place Conan at such a high end price point is interesting to me. Comparasion between similarly priced games are going to happen and be discussed on value simply because of the MSRP. The market factors you describe may very well exist but they in no way devalue or invalidate an opinion of a consumer. To blanket such discussion out of ignorance is absurd. My question simply is the MSRP decision good for the game and how does it compare to other similar games.
 
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Strom40 wrote:
Autoduelist wrote:
There's nothing wrong with comparing games based on price as a consumer. It's your money after all and price is supposed to be a reflection of value. If you don't care about other factors like the setting, game rules, etc and miniatures & artwork are your biggest concerns, it's an equal comparison.

What I'm against is ascribing *value* judgments about a publisher's competence / motives because there are other factors - like print run sizes, better access to distributors, etc. - that play a bigger role in why one game priced at $120 has better miniatures or artwork than another game priced at $120.

I know a way to make all board games have great artwork and miniatures; unfortunately, because of the small demand / print run size for most board games, they'd have an MSRP of $175 dollars or more and wouldn't sell very well because of consumer's price sensitivity. Games like Cthulhu Wars for example - truly the expensive high-performance sports car of gaming - are the exception to the rule and even Sandy Petersen has said retailers won't carry every product SKU of Cthulhu Wars because they can't sell the product.


Neil - go read your first post. You suggest I am ridiculing or attacking publicly the Conan game (and value) out of ignorance. That's elitist bs - as I called it in my post above. The question is valid and debateable and to demean the question because - in your eyes - I'm simply ignorant of numerous factors is really one of the most elitist posts I have ever read. I'm kinda ashamed it was thumbed (as a big thumber myself). It's this kind of dismissive opinion that hurts discussions - and this is a forum!

Then you ascribe value as insider knowledge exclusively - as you define it? This is a forum and I'm glad you feel so much more knowledgeable then a gamer like me who questions a ridiculosly high MSRP. This is at the high end of boardgame/miniature games - not many are over $120. The decision to place Conan at such a high end price point is interesting to me. Comparasion between similarly priced games are going to happen and be discussed on value simply because of the MSRP. The market factors you describe may very well exist but they in no way devalue or invalidate an opinion of a consumer. To blanket such discussion out of ignorance is absurd. My question simply is the MSRP decision good for the game and how does it compare to other similar games.


Well it is fair to compare to CMON since these are both board game minis. The GW comparison is off for a few reasons. Warhammer Quest is MSRP $150 and only has 44 miniatures. GW is clearly of superior quality, but you are paying a price for that. This has 72 and is pretty comparable to CMON's massive darkness which is also $120. $120 is definitely on the high end, but this isn't the first. Massive Darkness was the first of this style to cross that threshold.
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Strom40 wrote:
...the single most biggest pile of Stygian camel waste I have ever read on BBG. ...


A thumb and a coin for you on a properly thematic callout in a thread about conan.
 
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[Fixed quote markers.]

Quote:
Neil - go read your first post. You suggest I am ridiculing or attacking publicly the Conan game (and value) out of ignorance. That's elitist bs - as I called it in my post above. The question is valid and debateable and to demean the question because - in your eyes - I'm simply ignorant of numerous factors is really one of the most elitist posts I have ever read. I'm kinda ashamed it was thumbed (as a big thumber myself). It's this kind of dismissive opinion that hurts discussions - and this is a forum!


So is personally attacking me in a forum and people applauding publicly with geek gold and I don't appreciate it.

I thank the community for weighing in with their thumbs and use of the red X button, and I trust the admins will sort this all out if it has to come down to that.

Quote:
Then you ascribe value as insider knowledge exclusively - as you define it? This is a forum and I'm glad you feel so much more knowledgeable then a gamer like me who questions a ridiculosly high MSRP.


Yes, and it's perfectly valid to complain it's not worth the price point to you as a consumer. The usual directions these threads take though is "Because game X from Company 1 doesn't match Game Y from Company 2, that's proof customers are getting ripped off" and the discussion doesn't go any further than that and it becomes a big bash-the-game-and-designer fest.

I'm sorry if I offended you. Since you're are interested in my qualifications, before I switched careers I was a Certified Public Accountant and Certified Management Accountant (a certification commonly associated with cost accounting.) So yes, I do have some general insight into business pricing.

Quote:
This is at the high end of boardgame/miniature games - not many are over $120. The decision to place Conan at such a high end price point is interesting to me. Comparasion between similarly priced games are going to happen and be discussed on value simply because of the MSRP. The market factors you describe may very well exist but they in no way devalue or invalidate an opinion of a consumer. To blanket such discussion out of ignorance is absurd. My question simply is the MSRP decision good for the game and how does it compare to other similar games.


Yes, part of that difference is the cost structures of the companies involved, experience making that kind of board game, etc.
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Pete R.
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Thanks. I apologize to you as well for any implied or direct offense. I was trying to keep my comments strictly on your post and failed to do so.

I think the geek gold was strictly thematic and in no way supportive beyond that recognition. You win the thumbs - there is no doubt.
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Thank you. I also apologize for misreading the intent of your original post asking about the game's price. I wish I had explained myself better so that I didn't cause any harm to you or others on this thread in the first place.

I hope that the final game is great for those who buy it and it makes this whole discussion moot.
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