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Subject: Move piece twice during Government Sweep rss

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Nigel Pattinson
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Am I right in thinking that a single Troops piece can move more than once during a Sweep operation ? E.g. Troops start in La Habana, Matanzas is selected as a destination and Troops move there. Then Las Villas is selected as a second destination and the same Troops move again to Las Villas.

The Insurgent March rules explicitly say 'No Guerrilla moves more than once' but I don't see an equivalent restriction on Government Sweep.
 
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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npattinson wrote:
Am I right in thinking that a single Troops piece can move more than once during a Sweep operation ? E.g. Troops start in La Habana, Matanzas is selected as a destination and Troops move there. Then Las Villas is selected as a second destination and the same Troops move again to Las Villas.

The Insurgent March rules explicitly say 'No Guerrilla moves more than once' but I don't see an equivalent restriction on Government Sweep.


You cannot move any troop more than one space in a sweep operation. You can only move them into an adjacent space.
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David Goulette
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Nigel, the exact rule is not completely clear as written. Unfortunately there are a number of places in the rules where you have to learn the style of the rules and learn what is intended. With that said, you will get into the head-space of the style of the rules.

I am pretty sure that you have to completely finish moving all of your troops before you activate any underground guerillas.

Here is the procedure in the sweep rule:
Quote:

PROCEDURE: First, move any adjacent Troops desired into selected
spaces.
Then, in selected spaces other than Forest, Activate 1 Guerrilla
(1.4.3) for each cube there (Police plus Troops, whether they just
moved or were already there).
• In Forest spaces, Activate only 1 Guerrilla for every 2 cubes
(round odd cubes down).


The first bolded part implied that you do all of the moving to selected spaces, that are adjacent to the starting position of your troops. The second bolded bit "Then," is key as well. You will see this in places in COIN rules. It usually means that "now that you have completely completed the previous step, then now do the following: in selected places other than..." etc.

Of course what I said here is not official in any way.

[EDIT:]

So, the answer to your question is: you can effectively only sweep in adjacent spaces to where your troops are at the beginning of your sweep operation.

HOWEVER! I should add that if you do an operation with special activity, you can pair a sweep with Transport. In this case you CAN do the transport FIRST, before executing the sweep. So you could move three troops from one city or one base to ANY space, and then sweep from THAT space. So effectivily you can sweep anywhere with this combo.

Also, I just thought of one more thing that is not obvious from the rules. You are allowed to sweep in place, meaning you can sweep in a space where the troops already are at the beginning of the operation. You just have to pay for the sweep in any space you want to activate guerillas.
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Oerjan Ariander
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David's reply is correct, though he missed one Sweep-Transport interaction: when you execute a Special Activity, you may interrupt the accompanying Operation at any point. (Any single point, that is; the entire Special Activity must be done at the same time and may not be split up.)

This means that you can interrupt a Sweep in the middle of the "then Activate Guerrillas" step, so you Activate Guerrillas in one selected Sweep space,then Transport cubes from that space to another selected Sweep space, and then use the same cubes to Activate Guerrillas in that second Sweep space as well.

Regards,
Oerjan
 
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Nigel Pattinson
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Thanks. I understand that all moving must be completed prior to any activations, so with the exception of Transport, a given cube can only activate guerrillas in one space.

But it's still not clear to me that a given cube is prohibited from moving twice. To clarify my question, is this legal from the starting setup ?

Select and pay for Camaguey province as a sweep destination. Move the 3 Troops from Las Villas to Camaguey province. Also move in 1 Troops from Camaguey City.
Select and pay for Oriente as a sweep destination. Move 2 of the Troops that are now in Camaguey province to Oriente.
Select and pay for Sierra Maestra as a sweep desination. Move the 2 Troops in Oriente to Sierra Maestra.
Activate the Underground Directorio Guerrilla in Camaguey province and the 2 Underground 26July Guerrillas in Sierra Maestra.

Again, the Insurgent March rules explicitly prevent this sort of thing: 'No Guerrilla moves more than once' . But I don't see an equivalent restriction on Troops moving more than once during Sweep.
 
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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npattinson wrote:
Thanks. I understand that all moving must be completed prior to any activations, so with the exception of Transport, a given cube can only activate guerrillas in one space.

But it's still not clear to me that a given cube is prohibited from moving twice. To clarify my question, is this legal from the starting setup ?

Select and pay for Camaguey province as a sweep destination. Move the 3 Troops from Las Villas to Camaguey province. Also move in 1 Troops from Camaguey City.
Select and pay for Oriente as a sweep destination. Move 2 of the Troops that are now in Camaguey province to Oriente.
Select and pay for Sierra Maestra as a sweep desination. Move the 2 Troops in Oriente to Sierra Maestra.
Activate the Underground Directorio Guerrilla in Camaguey province and the 2 Underground 26July Guerrillas in Sierra Maestra.

Again, the Insurgent March rules explicitly prevent this sort of thing: 'No Guerrilla moves more than once' . But I don't see an equivalent restriction on Troops moving more than once during Sweep.


That is not legal. The explicit restriction from March rules is not necessary because Sweep specifically states "adjacent". The troops on Las Villas were not adjacent to Oriente when selecting spaces so they cannot move there. You select all spaces before movement.
 
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David Goulette
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Oerjan wrote:
David's reply is correct, though he missed one Sweep-Transport interaction: when you execute a Special Activity, you may interrupt the accompanying Operation at any point. (Any single point, that is; the entire Special Activity must be done at the same time and may not be split up.)

This means that you can interrupt a Sweep in the middle of the "then Activate Guerrillas" step, so you Activate Guerrillas in one selected Sweep space,then Transport cubes from that space to another selected Sweep space, and then use the same cubes to Activate Guerrillas in that second Sweep space as well.

Regards,
Oerjan


Hmm... yes that is possible. Thanks for that Oerjan.

So if you do a transport before you choose your sweep spaces, then you can choose the space that is the destination of transport (or a space adjacent to the transport). But if you interrupt the sweep AFTER you have chosen the sweep spaces and execute the transport in the middle, then you would have to sweep only in the spaces you chose.

I just also realized that the rules restrict movement of troops to adjacent spaces but does not literally restrict which spaces you choose (and pay for).

(Again, I argue that this thread further supports my argument that because the rules try to be as terse as possible, they succeed at avoiding inconsistency and contradiction, but they make the rules hard to completely grok and also leave open holes that require some inference to fill.)


 
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David Goulette
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
npattinson wrote:
Thanks. I understand that all moving must be completed prior to any activations, so with the exception of Transport, a given cube can only activate guerrillas in one space.

But it's still not clear to me that a given cube is prohibited from moving twice. To clarify my question, is this legal from the starting setup ?

Select and pay for Camaguey province as a sweep destination. Move the 3 Troops from Las Villas to Camaguey province. Also move in 1 Troops from Camaguey City.
Select and pay for Oriente as a sweep destination. Move 2 of the Troops that are now in Camaguey province to Oriente.
Select and pay for Sierra Maestra as a sweep desination. Move the 2 Troops in Oriente to Sierra Maestra.
Activate the Underground Directorio Guerrilla in Camaguey province and the 2 Underground 26July Guerrillas in Sierra Maestra.

Again, the Insurgent March rules explicitly prevent this sort of thing: 'No Guerrilla moves more than once' . But I don't see an equivalent restriction on Troops moving more than once during Sweep.


That is not legal. The explicit restriction from March rules is not necessary because Sweep specifically states "adjacent". The troops on Las Villas were not adjacent to Oriente when selecting spaces so they cannot move there. You select all spaces before movement.


Reverend, I'm certain you are correct about what the rules imply but the rules do not explicitly restrict what Nigel is suggesting. Let me reword his steps (please understand that I DO NOT THINK THE FOLLOWING IS LEGAL, but I am pointing out that the rules do not clearly restrict the following steps):

1) Select and pay for Camaguey province, Oriente, and Sierra Maestra as sweep destinations.

2) Now that we have chosen our spaces we move the 3 Troops from Las Villas to Camaguey province. Also move in 1 Troops from Camaguey City. This is legal since those cube were adjacent before movement.

3) Now move 2 of the Troops that are now in Camaguey province to Oriente. These troops are adjacent in Camaguey province when you do this movement.

4) Move the 2 Troops in Oriente to Sierra Maestra.
Activate the Underground Directorio Guerrilla in Camaguey province and the 2 Underground 26July Guerrillas in Sierra Maestra.


I believe this is not what is intended. But the rule should restrict this more explicitly.

This exact sort of thing is explicitly restricted in twilight struggle when placing influence. You can only place influence in countries adjacent to countries where you have influence when the turn began. (I paraphrase this since I don't have the TS rules in front of me.)
 
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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anaturalharmonic wrote:

I believe this is not what is intended. But the rule should restrict this more explicitly.


But since the movement is considered simultaneous (unless interrupted by a special activity), this sequence of events is clearly not allowed. I understand what you are saying about being "wordier" for more clarity, but then you would have a 120 page rulebook!
 
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David Goulette
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
anaturalharmonic wrote:

I believe this is not what is intended. But the rule should restrict this more explicitly.


But since the movement is considered simultaneous (unless interrupted by a special activity), this sequence of events is clearly not allowed. I understand what you are saying about being "wordier" for more clarity, but then you would have a 120 page rulebook!


Haha.

Well 120 pages is a bit of a stretch... but I know what you mean. However... if you consider how many BGG posts I have read about COIN rule clarifications, I think some more clarity (and length) in the original rule book would be more efficient and (more importantly) would make the game more approachable to new players.

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David Goulette
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
anaturalharmonic wrote:

I believe this is not what is intended. But the rule should restrict this more explicitly.


But since the movement is considered simultaneous (unless interrupted by a special activity), this sequence of events is clearly not allowed. I understand what you are saying about being "wordier" for more clarity, but then you would have a 120 page rulebook!


Ok... so I just reread this and I have a genuine question. (I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here to win an argument.) Where is the bolded part from your post explained in the rules?
 
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Pete Goch
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If anything 3.1 seems to imply that Operations (in general) are executed in a sequence and not simultaneously:

Quote:
The executing Faction chooses the order of the spaces in which the Operation is resolved...


If the order of resolution doesn't matter (is simultaneous) then why specify otherwise?

Quote:
PROCEDURE: First, move any adjacent Troops desired into selected
spaces.


Just add "all at once" or "simultaneously" to the end of that sentence to preclude chaining movement.
 
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Volko Ruhnke
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Hi guys. Your understanding of the rule is correct, no chaining.

By "First, move any adjacent Troops desired into selected
spaces....", we mean simultaneously, as the first step of the Sweep procedure.

I take your point that a "simultaneously" could have ruled out any suspicion that chaining of Troops was allowed. As a mitigating observation, I note that I do not recall confusion over this question before, going back to the same wording in Andean Abyss from 2012.

vfr
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Nigel Pattinson
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Thanks for the ruling. I would suggest clarifying it by including wording similar to Insurgent March has.
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Volko Ruhnke
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Logged for any future reprints, thanks!
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David Goulette
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Thanks Volko (and thank you in general for how awesome the COIN series is!).

I would consider wording similar to Twilight Struggle on legal influence placement.
 
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Volko Ruhnke
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Thanks!

I added this clarification to the official Errata here:

Quote:
Rules, page 6, 3.2.3 Sweep PROCEDURE line 1, clarification: Sweep movement is simultaneous; no cube moves more than once.

I used similar language to Guerrilla March, since Nigel cites that contrast as part of originally raising the question.

Cheers! Volko
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David Goulette
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Volko wrote:
Thanks!

I added this clarification to the official Errata here:

Quote:
Rules, page 6, 3.2.3 Sweep PROCEDURE line 1, clarification: Sweep movement is simultaneous; no cube moves more than once.

I used similar language to Guerrilla March, since Nigel cites that contrast as part of originally raising the question.

Cheers! Volko


Awesome Volko. Thanks to you and to Oerjan too.
 
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