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Subject: Game is inherently broken... Doggie pile rss

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Christopher James
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Move all your guys on a pentagram... Laugh as you roll ridiculous amounts of dice and one shot every hero. Gg.
 
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Flavio Santos
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Damn it, if only there were other places for the heroes to go...
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Paul Glickman
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tierdal wrote:
Move all your guys on a pentagram... Laugh as you roll ridiculous amounts of dice and one shot every hero. Gg.


How many games have you played? I feel that this is the "zerg rush" or the "always choose rock" of the game. It wins every time - until your opponent realizes how to play against it.

I am worried some specific scenarios/missions may be too partial to the turtle strategies, but according to all reports around here, it's not at all impossible to play against.
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Brad Keusch
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the drone strike or whatever it is makes turtling non-viable too.
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Will Martin
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anatana wrote:
the drone strike or whatever it is makes turtling non-viable too.


Ya, orbital laser + ranged characters hurt that strategy pretty badly.
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Max Maloney
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Guys, guys. Chris solved the game. It's over. Move along!
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Kevin Rush
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Man I wish I could play with you, would make my win percent sky rocket.
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Dave Kudzma
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I guess in your game(s) the heroes watched as you moved the monsters into that position and let you?

I'm going to guess this is either poor play during an actual game, or just theorizing in a vacuum.
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Altropos
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Alright, I'm interested in hearing solutions. I just got done with a game, and while I'm having fun with it, I can see how effective this strategy is. We faced Wrath in the first scenario. We need one pentagram from an unoccupied space. The only orbital strike location has 2 pents, a fire token, and an Abomination in the room. I have a hero in there. I activate, move the orbital laser closer and fry one abom outside the building. killed the abom. Wrath's power activates and he moves another monster in, then he reacts, moves another monster in, and summons an acolyte too. boom 12 dice explodes my hero all over the place.
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Paul Glickman
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Altropos wrote:
Alright, I'm interested in hearing solutions. I just got done with a game, and while I'm having fun with it, I can see how effective this strategy is. We faced Wrath in the first scenario. We need one pentagram from an unoccupied space. The only orbital strike location has 2 pents, a fire token, and an Abomination in the room. I have a hero in there. I activate, move the orbital laser closer and fry one abom outside the building. killed the abom. Wrath's power activates and he moves another monster in, then he reacts, moves another monster in, and summons an acolyte too. boom 12 dice explodes my hero all over the place.


Wrath is very good at punishing you for killing his dudes. Be careful.
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Richard Keene
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Altropos wrote:
Alright, I'm interested in hearing solutions. I just got done with a game, and while I'm having fun with it, I can see how effective this strategy is. We faced Wrath in the first scenario. We need one pentagram from an unoccupied space. The only orbital strike location has 2 pents, a fire token, and an Abomination in the room. I have a hero in there. I activate, move the orbital laser closer and fry one abom outside the building. killed the abom. Wrath's power activates and he moves another monster in, then he reacts, moves another monster in, and summons an acolyte too. boom 12 dice explodes my hero all over the place.

Wraths ability only activates in combat. Orbital Laser is not combat so should not trigger that ability. It’s also optional; you can choose to take 1 corruption to cancel the teleport. Plus it is a teleport of only 1 space.
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Will Martin
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lordnine wrote:
Altropos wrote:
Alright, I'm interested in hearing solutions. I just got done with a game, and while I'm having fun with it, I can see how effective this strategy is. We faced Wrath in the first scenario. We need one pentagram from an unoccupied space. The only orbital strike location has 2 pents, a fire token, and an Abomination in the room. I have a hero in there. I activate, move the orbital laser closer and fry one abom outside the building. killed the abom. Wrath's power activates and he moves another monster in, then he reacts, moves another monster in, and summons an acolyte too. boom 12 dice explodes my hero all over the place.

Wraths ability only activates in combat. Orbital Laser is not combat so should not trigger that ability. It’s also optional; you can choose to take 1 corruption to cancel the teleport. Plus it is a teleport of only 1 space.


That'd stop it alright.
 
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Kent
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So far, every claim that this game is broken... merely illustrates how "broken" those claims happen to be.

If it seems too easy to win: You're playing it wrong.

Check the rules and the threads here. Plan a bit more deeply. Watch the upcoming story missions and your opponent's moves.

A bit of chess-like brinkmanship exists in this game, for sure.
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Christopher Linkhart
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Our group just played our first game with Gluttony, Hobos, and one of the Redemption stories. We had a great time. At some point in the game, the Sin was stacking innocents (start of round story effect) & react-moving/sin-carding most monsters into the same space. We needed to get into that space, flip the innocents face-up (can't with monsters in the space), and run away to cleanse 4 tokens OR defeat the Avatar in a fight. Any single hero could only get like 3-8 dice + 0-3 guaranteed hits in an effort to murder-suicide the Avatar; it was always a sure death since the Sin player would roll 14-19 dice in the fight. Ranged attacks don't have line of sight into a building from the street and there are only 2 orbital lasers accessible each round (doesn't help much when the space still has 4-5+ monsters in it. What are we missing? Is this scenario possible and the heroes just should not have let it get to that point?
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CK Lai
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RemiZero wrote:
Our group just played our first game with Gluttony, Hobos, and one of the Redemption stories. We had a great time. At some point in the game, the Sin was stacking innocents (start of round story effect) & react-moving/sin-carding most monsters into the same space. We needed to get into that space, flip the innocents face-up (can't with monsters in the space), and run away to cleanse 4 tokens OR defeat the Avatar in a fight. Any single hero could only get like 3-8 dice + 0-3 guaranteed hits in an effort to murder-suicide the Avatar; it was always a sure death since the Sin player would roll 14-19 dice in the fight. Ranged attacks don't have line of sight into a building from the street and there are only 2 orbital lasers accessible each round (doesn't help much when the space still has 4-5+ monsters in it. What are we missing? Is this scenario possible and the heroes just should not have let it get to that point?


Haven't played any Redemption story yet, but yes. The heroes shouldn't have let it get to the point where the Sins player moves a ridiculous number of monsters into a space.

My first multi-player game was like that (I was the Sins player) and I won. But only because the heroes let me. In their post-game discussion, they realised they should've gone all out to prevent me from turtling, and even enter the district early to knock out as many monsters as they could. Instead, they fooled around, gathering upgrades and moving pieces about.
 
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Lester Festertester
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Once again, some one mistakes inept player strategy for play imbalance.shake
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Brett Smith
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This is pretty simple to block just put a hero in front of the entrance to where they are trying to stack, monsters can not move from a space with a hero in it completely stops this from happening, like everyone else has said the orbital strike is big on this one also, and finally biggest thing people do wrong in this game the first couple plays is they dont take corruption enough its simply hugely powerful for your hero's you have to understand hero's will die in this game
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Altropos
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I agree that there is more we could have done in this case. We forgot about taking corruption to cancel the teleport, though we were using the laser correctly and not triggering Wrath's ability with it. But the more I think about how to solve the puzzle, the more I'm worried. With the first scenario as an example: Say during the entire first round of the game the Sins player uses his reactions not to try and ding the heroes, but to move surviving Abominations into the protection of the distant 'Dogpile' room. This room is also the recipient of this and future round's Pentagram tokens.
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Christopher James
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RemiZero wrote:
Our group just played our first game with Gluttony, Hobos, and one of the Redemption stories. We had a great time. At some point in the game, the Sin was stacking innocents (start of round story effect) & react-moving/sin-carding most monsters into the same space. We needed to get into that space, flip the innocents face-up (can't with monsters in the space), and run away to cleanse 4 tokens OR defeat the Avatar in a fight. Any single hero could only get like 3-8 dice + 0-3 guaranteed hits in an effort to murder-suicide the Avatar; it was always a sure death since the Sin player would roll 14-19 dice in the fight. Ranged attacks don't have line of sight into a building from the street and there are only 2 orbital lasers accessible each round (doesn't help much when the space still has 4-5+ monsters in it. What are we missing? Is this scenario possible and the heroes just should not have let it get to that point?

see!~
 
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Geoff ...
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tierdal wrote:
RemiZero wrote:
Our group just played our first game with Gluttony, Hobos, and one of the Redemption stories. We had a great time. At some point in the game, the Sin was stacking innocents (start of round story effect) & react-moving/sin-carding most monsters into the same space. We needed to get into that space, flip the innocents face-up (can't with monsters in the space), and run away to cleanse 4 tokens OR defeat the Avatar in a fight. Any single hero could only get like 3-8 dice + 0-3 guaranteed hits in an effort to murder-suicide the Avatar; it was always a sure death since the Sin player would roll 14-19 dice in the fight. Ranged attacks don't have line of sight into a building from the street and there are only 2 orbital lasers accessible each round (doesn't help much when the space still has 4-5+ monsters in it. What are we missing? Is this scenario possible and the heroes just should not have let it get to that point?

see!~

Yep I see. You start a thread with a controversial topic and stay silent when multiple posters offer advice. But you did drop in to say "see!" when the opportunity arose.

Seeing as you're not interested in anyone's feedback; why are you here, other than to tell us that the game sucks?

EDIT: Typo.
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Will Martin
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RemiZero wrote:
Our group just played our first game with Gluttony, Hobos, and one of the Redemption stories. We had a great time. At some point in the game, the Sin was stacking innocents (start of round story effect) & react-moving/sin-carding most monsters into the same space. We needed to get into that space, flip the innocents face-up (can't with monsters in the space), and run away to cleanse 4 tokens OR defeat the Avatar in a fight. Any single hero could only get like 3-8 dice + 0-3 guaranteed hits in an effort to murder-suicide the Avatar; it was always a sure death since the Sin player would roll 14-19 dice in the fight. Ranged attacks don't have line of sight into a building from the street and there are only 2 orbital lasers accessible each round (doesn't help much when the space still has 4-5+ monsters in it. What are we missing? Is this scenario possible and the heroes just should not have let it get to that point?


Also who were your active heroes? Different heroes can give you different strategies. I'm mostly thinking that if your Sins player is a dogpiler, having Rose for when they do that helps, because that's one more 'removed' monster.

Also how many entrance points were there to the building? If there are only one or two, while it might not deal with the problem at hand, positioning heroes at the entrances prevents further influx of monsters while you figure out how to deal with the turtling strategy.
 
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CK Lai
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Altropos wrote:
I agree that there is more we could have done in this case. We forgot about taking corruption to cancel the teleport, though we were using the laser correctly and not triggering Wrath's ability with it. But the more I think about how to solve the puzzle, the more I'm worried. With the first scenario as an example: Say during the entire first round of the game the Sins player uses his reactions not to try and ding the heroes, but to move surviving Abominations into the protection of the distant 'Dogpile' room. This room is also the recipient of this and future round's Pentagram tokens.


If the Sins player focuses on a turtling strategy, that means the heroes have the initiative.

So the heroes can move around, finish off the other missions, gain upgrades, manage corruption, etc. It also means the Sins player isn't actively going after the heroes, which means you have heroes in reserve.

Once you're ready, move into the "dogpile" room. Several strategies: use the laser to remove one marked monster, Brad can also remove one marked monster without combat at the cost of one corruption. That's 2 monsters removed.

Thorley and Morgana (at max corruption) are also pretty reliable at removing monsters due to their high melee stats. Also, dropping and picking up upgrades are essentially "free" actions, so after one hero fights, he can (if he survives) drop the upgrade cards for another hero to pick up. (Sorry. Replace "upgrades" with "NPC tokens".) These give you an even chance at removing the remaining 2 monsters you need, even if one of them is the Avatar.

You just need to remember not to be too attached to the heroes. The point is not the have them survive but to finish the mission. Even if the heroes die and there are no more replacements, if they manage to kill the last remaining marked monster at the same time, the heroes win.

Lastly, remember the heroes can target specific monsters to damage, so even if there are 10 monsters in the room, you only need to focus on the marked ones.

(Edited to remove wrong info. Sorry.)
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Jordan Bradford
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So... did the players know the rules, or...?

There's a lot of games where the first (sometimes first few) plays get lopsided results. Virtually every game I play for the first time, someone keys into a runaway strategy and the point spread is ridiculous. Subsequent plays inevitably turn the first few into learning experiences; the point spread (or in this case 'runaway victory') diminishes as players grow accustomed to the rules and strategy.

I mean, the original post has no context. I'm leaning towards believing that if you had a playthrough video of this strategy in action, it would be easily picked apart. My advice is try a few more times with this strategy as players learn more about the rules and structure, then see about its viability.

(Note: This is NOT to pick apart the notion that there is a 'sure win' strategy; simply stating that, while oversights DO exist in the gaming world in terms of balance and strategy, this seems like a glaring one that would have been noted and adjusted for in the game's testing phase of development.)
 
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Atul Deshpande
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Chinkster wrote:
[q="Altropos"]Also, dropping and picking up upgrades are essentially "free" actions, so after one hero fights, he can (if he survives) drop the upgrade cards for another hero to pick up. These give you an even chance at removing the remaining 2 monsters you need, even if one of them is the Avatar.


Is this allowed? I believe the draft version of the rulebook states that upgrades cannot be traded between heroes.
 
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Mark Blasco

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smith2332 wrote:
This is pretty simple to block just put a hero in front of the entrance to where they are trying to stack, monsters can not move from a space with a hero in it completely stops this from happening, like everyone else has said the orbital strike is big on this one also, and finally biggest thing people do wrong in this game the first couple plays is they dont take corruption enough its simply hugely powerful for your hero's you have to understand hero's will die in this game


This sounds spot on to me. Placing a hero or two outside of the building, who's whole job is to prevent monsters from entering, will keep them from pilling up. Someone else using the orbital laser to bring down the number of monsters in the room will reduce things to a manageable level.

While I agree that piling up in one room has some advantages, if players are aware of what to do, it's not unstoppable.
 
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