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Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » General

Subject: How big can it get until it crumbles under its own weight? rss

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Adelin Dumitru
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Although I don't think there could ever be too many Legendary games, I know that many people do not feel that way. Whereas I would not mind 5-6 expansions per year (though my wallet would...), many people would be quite content even with 1 or 2 expansions released each year.

However, this has become, if I'm not mistaken (and if I am, please correct me) the deckbuilding game with the highest number of expansions. We have 10 expansions to the base game (including Villains) and an upcoming Deadpool expansion in the Fall. How many expansions are too many expansions, in your opinion? The question, thus, is not necessarily whether the game will have, let's say, 20 expansions, but whether it should have that many expansions.

Once again, I must say that I do not consider that there will ever be too many expansions. As far as I am concerned, they can release the current number of expansions per year for the next 10 years. I will gladly buy them all, or, if I ever grow tired of the game, which I don't suppose it's going to happen, I will just stop getting them. It's not like you have to catch'em all.

Regardless, what are your thoughts? Can this game get too big for its own sake, or is this something that doesn't have any relevance to Legendary Marvel?
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AdelinDumitru wrote:
Although I don't think there could ever be too many Legendary games, I know that many people do not feel that way. Whereas I would not mind 5-6 expansions per year (though my wallet would...), many people would be quite content even with 1 or 2 expansions released each year.

However, this has become, if I'm not mistaken (and if I am, please correct me) the deckbuilding game with the highest number of expansions. We have 10 expansions to the base game (including Villains) and an upcoming Deadpool expansion in the Fall. How many expansions are too many expansions, in your opinion? The question, thus, is not necessarily whether the game will have, let's say, 20 expansions, but whether it should have that many expansions.

Once again, I must say that I do not consider that there will ever be too many expansions. As far as I am concerned, they can release the current number of expansions per year for the next 10 years. I will gladly buy them all, or, if I ever grow tired of the game, which I don't suppose it's going to happen, I will just stop getting them. It's not like you have to catch'em all.

Regardless, what are your thoughts? Can this game get too big for its own sake, or is this something that doesn't have any relevance to Legendary Marvel?
The wonderful thing with the DB genre is that it can never really grow too big nor getting too many expansions quite like TCGs. This due to the fact that each game only uses a small and limited portion of the game rather than everything in a single game like some do.

This results in that Legendary expansions only offers more variation rather than a bigger, clunkier footprint (save for in the game collection). As you said people do not even need to get the expansions they dislike and can just get what they want. I would, however, say that for the average consumer 3-4 boxes per year is the limit. If they go over that people will get pickier with what they buy which is bad for bussiness... We'll see this year if 4 boxes are too many, but I think people will be willing to buy 4 boxes per year.
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Alexandre P.
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AdelinDumitru wrote:
Regardless, what are your thoughts? Can this game get too big for its own sake, or is this something that doesn't have any relevance to Legendary Marvel?


A lot of people here, in my opinion, complain because of their own "completion behaviour".
The more expansion is created, the more difficult (expensive) it is to have it all. And even for a non-completionist, learning about the game and seeing how many content has been created is quite intimidating ...
I often say as joke that as I only own Marvel, Villains, Alien and predator, I would have to choose for the next years if I want to be a boardgamer or a player of Legendary (and Encounters).
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I agree with that it was a little bit intimidating at first getting into this game (started playing it early this year if memory serves right), but it actually wasn't quite that dangerous, especially as there was no reason getting it all at once or even in order. Now I have all boxed expansions half a year later (it is only out of principe I am not getting 3D stuff. Either a game is boxed or collectable) and it hasn't been too bad on the wallet. It was actually quite enjoyable to hunt them down.
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Stephen Mills
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The question for me is not how big it can get, I'm hooked, but it's now a question of how far do I go, that has started to tap on my head, because I've now filled the main box full of heroes and a Secret Wars box everything else, Villains contains itself, so buying more means dividing the heroes. If the game goes on as it has done I will need to be creative. Already some heroes are hardly ever used, some schemes lost. I'm sure the game will carry on, but can I keep up with it? In four more years I'll have twice as many heroes! That's exciting! I want them! By God I need them. Will so much crush the game? No. Like xLVNx said, it can never really grow too big nor have too many expansions. I personally don't know if I can be selective, buying this one but not that one, that's my weakness, or my pleasure. But for me one day I will just stop buying, my own limit will be reached ... as I write that it sounds impossible.
I'm curious to hear from someone who makes their own cards and laughs at my little worries "100 heroes? oh child you know nothing!"
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John Cocktosen
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Xahendir wrote:
AdelinDumitru wrote:
Regardless, what are your thoughts? Can this game get too big for its own sake, or is this something that doesn't have any relevance to Legendary Marvel?


A lot of people here, in my opinion, complain because of their own "completion behaviour".
The more expansion is created, the more difficult (expensive) it is to have it all. And even for a non-completionist, learning about the game and seeing how many content has been created is quite intimidating ...
I often say as joke that as I only own Marvel, Villains, Alien and predator, I would have to choose for the next years if I want to be a boardgamer or a player of Legendary (and Encounters).


I'm a completionist and my only complaint is that dividers never come out quick enough when an expansion is released (tongue in cheek). And that isn't even a legit complaint because someone is taking time out of their schedule to make. The waiting is fine by me.

I think for completionists that have been in on the Marvel Legendary action since FF could be purchased in stores, the expansions are manageable (at least for me it is). I use FF as a barometer for obvious reasons.

To the point of the original post...all good things must come to an end eventually. I am sure there will come a point that oversaturation takes place, whether it's because of overkill or boredom (at least for me). Heck, if they put too much out how the hell will people be able to carry it around? Whatever mythical storage solution they are allegedly designing better have an option for wheels. The more they churn out the more storage solution threads we see. I think this would certainly fall under the completionist point of view. Because....

The point was made that the game doesn't need every expansion to be enjoyed. And right there is a saving grace for the game. The genius of the design is that it is not necessary to have it all.

It's the Legendary Bar and Grill, featuring a robust drink and meal menu. Fancy GotG with a side of Deadpool, hold the Fear Itself? It can be done, because at the Legendary Bar and Grill the choice is yours. And that, I think, is the strength of the game.

People getting in on the ground floor recently don't need it all. Pick and peck - get what you want, go from there. If they are completionists then I'd like to think they are smart enough to realize they are getting in on a popular game that's been around for a few years and know there will be a cost to getting it all, sans any complaining.

A large part of me feels that storage issues will kill the game for some people, especially as the game continues to grow.
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Adelin Dumitru
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I got used to keeping everything in 4 boxes, but if one has to move the game i can see why storage is an issue.
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AdelinDumitru wrote:
Although I don't think there could ever be too many Legendary games, I know that many people do not feel that way. Whereas I would not mind 5-6 expansions per year (though my wallet would...), many people would be quite content even with 1 or 2 expansions released each year.

However, this has become, if I'm not mistaken (and if I am, please correct me) the deckbuilding game with the highest number of expansions. We have 10 expansions to the base game (including Villains) and an upcoming Deadpool expansion in the Fall. How many expansions are too many expansions, in your opinion? The question, thus, is not necessarily whether the game will have, let's say, 20 expansions, but whether it should have that many expansions.

Once again, I must say that I do not consider that there will ever be too many expansions. As far as I am concerned, they can release the current number of expansions per year for the next 10 years. I will gladly buy them all, or, if I ever grow tired of the game, which I don't suppose it's going to happen, I will just stop getting them. It's not like you have to catch'em all.

Regardless, what are your thoughts? Can this game get too big for its own sake, or is this something that doesn't have any relevance to Legendary Marvel?


The advantage of Legendary is the fact that it's a component based game. Don't like the heroes in the expansion? You don't need to buy it. Now, if they could just fix the wording on the boxes to be true...

Each big box expansion adds new card types and therefore are more essential to the experience. Little guys are like booster packs, nice but not necessary.

I think their expansion rate is just right.
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John Cocktosen
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AdelinDumitru wrote:
I got used to keeping everything in 4 boxes, but if one has to move the game i can see why storage is an issue.


As of right now everything is in one container and there is room for a mini and one more big box, everything sleeved. After that...ooph.
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Sky Zero
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It crumbled under its own mechanics for me after Dark City. When you boil the game down, everything really is just carbon copies of each other. I ended up taking the base + dark city, jumbling it up into an Epic version and just play that. The post dark city expansions are just more of the same.
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Adelin Dumitru
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Oh really? Please find me the equivalents of Sidekicks, New Recruits, Divided Cards or Ascending Masterminds in those 2 sets. One of the most amazing things about this game is that every set is different, that the mechanics are unique, innovative and fascinating.

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I started playing 4 months ago with the base set. Since then, I have purchased everything this game has to offer. Including FF. I play 2 handed solo with everything combined and randomize everything that can be. I will buy anything they put out. With that being said, I would like to see UD put a hold on anymore expansions. I would like to see an updated playmat to fit all cards. Also, an updated rulebook with keywords and solo rules from all sets. Lastky, I would love to see UD design a campaign mode. Until these things are taken care of, I could go without more content. But I will never stop buying regardless.
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Itai Rosenbaum
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I have two concerns for the future of Legendary:

The first of these being repetition. And by that I don't mean the same hero appearing in multiple sets. As I've said every time this issue comes up - I don't mind getting repeat heroes as long as they each play differently. The problem is, there's only so much you can stretch the mechanics of the game. At some point we may get hero sets which are virtually identical in how they play. It could get to a point where it doesn't matter if you select Hero X or Hero Y - as their set will provide the exact same game effect. We're already starting to see this with the Schemes in Civil War - a big complaint was that a lot of those schemes were recycled and ever-so-slightly tweaked versions of pre-existing schemes. Now, I don't think this is a sign of the end-times, as schemes really are the easiest to play around with - but it is a red flag. The flipside danger of this is things like Man Out of Time, which is super-clunky and cumbersome mechanic, introduced to keep things "new" and "fresh".

The second concern I have is power creep. Something that may already be happening (I haven't checked). In constantly trying to push the game forward, new heroes and villains are getting more extravagent effects - leaving heroes from older expansions in the dust. I wonder what would happen if I try to take on villains and a Mastermind from recent expansions like Zemo or Iron Man with only heroes from the base set. I don't even question the opposite scenario - trying to take on base-set baddies with expansions heroes would be a walk in the park, as we already know the base set was quite easy.

Now, I have to say that 4 years in - we're pretty ok in both these departments. We're getting a little repetition, and some power creep, but it definitely could have been a lot worse. But as more and more stuff get released, balance and variety are going to get harder to maintain.
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Dennis Engilis
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I bought the first legendary game and it was alright except that I don't really care for the semi-cooperative aspect and sold or traded it. But I greatly enjoy the Aliens game and just purchased Big Trouble in Little China which I expect I'll enjoy as well. But to answer your question I think it may reach "too bigness" when we see "Legendary: My Little Pony" or "Legendary: The Three Stooges", although I'd probably buy the latter even if it were semi-coop;7
 
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Adelin Dumitru
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Kythrid wrote:
I bought the first legendary game and it was alright except that I don't really care for the semi-cooperative aspect and sold or traded it. But I greatly enjoy the Aliens game and just purchased Big Trouble in Little China which I expect I'll enjoy as well. But to answer your question I think it may reach "too bigness" when we see "Legendary: My Little Pony" or "Legendary: The Three Stooges", although I'd probably buy the latter even if it were semi-coop;7


Yeah, maybe i should have mentioned this from the start- i was referring strictly about the Marvel Legendary games, not about the other IPs and systems.
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Rob Rob
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I think one hurtle we have to get past - both with this system and LCGs - is the "gotta collect them all" completionist urge. E.G. With the Lord of the Rings LCG, you could play a different quest every day for half a year without repeating.

Of course by then there will have been another bunch of new content published. Unless it's the only game you ever play, in all that there's bound to have been a few decks you could have passed on.

At some point you just have to start passing on the expansions you don't really want and focus on those you do.

Also, I'm forever surprised publishers of these monster size games so rarely provide customers with "official" storage capacity. Other than Smash Up: The Big Geeky Box and the Sentinels of the Multiverse: OblivAeon KickStarter there don't seem to be any.
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Jamie Vantries
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IronSyndicate wrote:
I have two concerns for the future of Legendary:

The first of these being repetition. And by that I don't mean the same hero appearing in multiple sets. As I've said every time this issue comes up - I don't mind getting repeat heroes as long as they each play differently. The problem is, there's only so much you can stretch the mechanics of the game. At some point we may get hero sets which are virtually identical in how they play. It could get to a point where it doesn't matter if you select Hero X or Hero Y - as their set will provide the exact same game effect. We're already starting to see this with the Schemes in Civil War - a big complaint was that a lot of those schemes were recycled and ever-so-slightly tweaked versions of pre-existing schemes. Now, I don't think this is a sign of the end-times, as schemes really are the easiest to play around with - but it is a red flag. The flipside danger of this is things like Man Out of Time, which is super-clunky and cumbersome mechanic, introduced to keep things "new" and "fresh".

The second concern I have is power creep. Something that may already be happening (I haven't checked). In constantly trying to push the game forward, new heroes and villains are getting more extravagent effects - leaving heroes from older expansions in the dust. I wonder what would happen if I try to take on villains and a Mastermind from recent expansions like Zemo or Iron Man with only heroes from the base set. I don't even question the opposite scenario - trying to take on base-set baddies with expansions heroes would be a walk in the park, as we already know the base set was quite easy.

Now, I have to say that 4 years in - we're pretty ok in both these departments. We're getting a little repetition, and some power creep, but it definitely could have been a lot worse. But as more and more stuff get released, balance and variety are going to get harder to maintain.

1- I'm positive UDE would stop making expansions for this game if it got to the point where characters are almost carbon copies of pre-existing ones.

2- There's weak and powerful characters (both heroes and masterminds) in every set. And some schemes are going to be hard or easy regardless of who is being used. The base set masterminds were easy even before any expansions came out.
As for the older heroes being outclassed by more recent ones (which I disagree with), that shouldn't matter at all if you're actually playing by the rules. If you are, you don't get to pick which heroes/masterminds/schemes/adversaries are used. So even though "better" heroes might exist, that doesn't change the fact that at this very moment your only options are Spider-Man, Punisher, and Electro.
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John Cocktosen
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Robrob wrote:
I think one hurtle we have to get past - both with this system and LCGs - is the "gotta collect them all" completionist urge. E.G. With the Lord of the Rings LCG, you could play a different quest every day for half a year without repeating.

Of course by then there will have been another bunch of new content published. Unless it's the only game you ever play, in all that there's bound to have been a few decks you could have passed on.

At some point you just have to start passing on the expansions you don't really want and focus on those you do.

Also, I'm forever surprised publishers of these monster size games so rarely provide customers with "official" storage capacity. Other than Smash Up: The Big Geeky Box and the Sentinels of the Multiverse: OblivAeon KickStarter there don't seem to be any.


Why? If I want them all I'm going to get them all. And if I want to buy other games, which I do, then I'll do that. I happen to be a completionist, but I also happen to be a person that wants all of the expansions to Legendary - because, wait for it - I really like this game. To have options. To play story based games (because some of us read the comics). To play random games. To be able to participate in solo matches created and shared by users on this site. Leave my hurtles alone.
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John Bandettini
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I do love the game, but I wish they would slow down a bit. I find it very hard to keep up. I do realize its my fault for playing other games as well.
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Adelin Dumitru
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Once again about the supposed problem of repetition:

There are so many versions of Cap America (Rogers) out there and all play very differently. Regular Cap (base set), Cap and the Devil (SW2), Steve Rogers Director of SHIELD (Cap 75th), Cap 1941 (Cap 75th) and Cap Secret Avenger (Civil War). Add to these really similar characters such as Patriot or Cap-Falc and you begin to notice how much attention UD pays to details. There are slight changes between some of the aforementioned heroes' commons, for instances, but they are noticeable changes, that require very different strategies when you use them.

And guess what? there is still room for yet another Cap, this time with Thrown Artifact!
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Max Laager
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well I store the game on an IKEA Kallax shelf... so I think even if the full shelf is full with Marvel legendary it won't collapse...

also If I will my full house with Marvel legendary... it wont collapes...


if you build a Pyramide of cards quickly after 2-3 metres the boxes in the middle would colapse...

But I think before that will happen we will run out of interesting marvel heroes to add to the game...

So marvel legendary will colapse because we run out of interesing heroes

OR upper deck dues make a 2nd edtion and starts it all over

Or marvel/disney pulls the license

Or donald trump make comic elegal

Or your death will arrive before the colapse of marvel legendary

or your bankrupcy...

or you will finaly grow up
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Adelin Dumitru
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Quote:
So marvel legendary will colapse because we run out of interesing heroes



Brief list of "interesting" heroes, classified under 2 main headings: heroes of interest to the average MCU (and X-men Cinematic Universe) fan and heroes of interest to the average comic fan.

I.
1. Scarlet Witch
2. Quicksilver
3. Psylocke
4. Jubilee
5. Negasonic Teenage Warhead (yes, most fans of the Deadpool movie liked her very much)
6. Ant-Man (Scott Lang)
7. Wasp
8. Ant-Man (Hank Pym)
9. Odin
10. Heimdall
11. Lady Sif
12. Agent Carter
13. Phil Coulson
14. Mockingbird
15. Jessica Jones
16. Hellcat
17. Quake
18. Deathlok

II.
19. Angela
20. Mantis
21. Nova
22. She-Hulk
23. Red She-Hulk
24. Anti-Venom
25. Skaar
26. Red Hulk
27. A-Bomb
28. Valkyrie
29. Moondragon
30. Phyla-Vell
31. Adam Warlock
32. Quasar
33. Major Victory
34. Beta Ray Bill
35. Kitty Pryde (Star-Lord)
36. Polaris
37. Havol
38. Warpath
39. Marvel Girl
40. Blue Marvel
41. Monica Rambeau (Spectrum)
42. Medusa
43. Squirrel Girl
44. Gwenpool
45. Lady Deadpool
46. Miss America
47. Hulk (Amadeus Cho)
48. War Machine
49. Sasquatch
50. Slapstick

And I could go on...

And I haven't even thought of including villains for more villainous expansions .

Add to these a couple of repeat characters. Mix some of them in team-based expansions (Nextwave, Runaways, etc.). and you have enough interesting heroes to last a decade.
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Atnier Rodriguez
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Judging by the many entries in the Variants forum, there's plenty of design uniqueness and character variety to choose from.

I'm not worried about repetition of mechanics and/or characters or limited creative space.

There's years left on this franchise, if they don't get lazy.
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Max Laager
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hihi... I m not enought a deep comic fan. just well more surface.. and love the game 'cause makes me discover heroes I didnt hear about before

Maybe it will collapse if they stop selling the base game, shriking the customer base year after year...

or yeah the get lazy/bored/too rich and stop it


won't they make the app ?
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Adelin Dumitru
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There's an app rumor for 2017. ios-supported I think, but maybe android too?
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