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Legendary: Big Trouble in Little China» Forums » General

Subject: Why I'm still torn on whether to buy this game or not rss

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Adelin Dumitru
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1. Inconsistent artwork. Yeah, it's silly and it works, so that is not really a problem for me given the theme. However, the one thing that I cannot put up with in regard to artwork in a game is inconsistency. Gracie Law's cards look like she had come from a totally different game.

2. Bad production. The box is too small so the mat won't fit in. It will have to be folded, which over time is going to leave marks. That is perhaps the biggest disappointment.

3. Devin Low is not the designer. While I can appreciate originality, I don't appreciate when a designer does not get the spirit of a game. There are many small differences that matter, and which show very clearly that Devin Low has not designed this game - final showdown is mandatory, there is no explanation for the Bribe keyword in the rulebook, very weird uses of words on some cards.

4. Although the box says 1-5 players, it is not meant to be played solo, and it does not contain solo rules. Once again, Devin's absence is noteworthy, and once again the designer clearly shows that he does not get the spirit of the game.

5. It's been mentioned already, but it is so annoying that it has to be mentioned - one of the most hated aspects of the original Legendary game, the Final Showdown messy optional variant, is now mandatory.

6. Lack of keywords, which give the game flavor, except for Bribe, which is not even explained in the rulebook.

7. Not enough replayability. 9 heroes, 4 villain groups...not too much to start with, especially since it cannot be as easily combined with Marvel as it was marketed.

Summing up, the game is not new user- friendly, it is not old-user friendly, and shows significant production flaws.

For those who own it, what do you think? have you considered that the aforementioned problems affected your gameplay experience? what other problems have you identified?
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All of your points seem solid except 5.

You might be the first person ive seen in years even complain about the final showdown, much less call it the 'most hated' part of the game.

(If there was a most hated part, id say it was sorting all the cards out based on reviews)
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Mike K
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What is the show down? I dont own marvel and its not part of encounters which I do own, cant say when I've played Marvel I've ever had a show down, we've always beat the mastermind and high fives, game over?
 
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Teel McClanahan
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I had to grab the BTiLC rules pdf and re-read the rules since, in every group I've played Legendary games with (especially if I taught them) we don't even acknowledge the Final Showdown as a thing—we looked at the rule and thought, "Why would we ever do that?"—though we also almost never add up "victory points", either, so that may say something about us.

The Final Showdown is: After the 4th/final Mastermind Tactic is defeated and the game is won, each player takes one more [weird, partial] turn playing their normal hand of 6 cards (but not drawing a new hand at the end). During the Final Showdown players may not recruit heroes or defeat villains, no new villains enter the city, and although [where possible] your card powers activate—all you care about is the sum total of your Recruit & Attack points at the end of that turn, which is your "Showdown Total". Whichever player has the highest "Showdown Total" gains the Mastermind card to their Victory Pile for a few extra VP.

The first time I read through the BTiLC rules I didn't even notice it wasn't considered optional—the sentence about it being the "standard way to play the game" is in a sub-point on resolving tied Final Showdowns, not on the main instructions about Final Showdowns. The rulebook is, overall, quite awkward and frequently incomplete. (I had do double-check; there really is no explanation of Bribe! What a mess.)

I can forgive the lack of keywords, as much of what was done with keywords in other games is accomplished with specific call-outs to named characters, Mediocre Heroes, and Chinatown. Unfortunately, while this has a similar effect to using a team icon to activate the effect, it makes the game harder to mix with other Legendary games [without a lot of mental gymnastics] and can hobble your game if your hero deck composition isn't properly synergized.

And while I haven't played the game, just glancing over the cards tells me it had a very different sort of designer than most Legendary games. A card which gets a bonus if another specific, named card "has entered play this game"? I guess if I get one of these cards I should gain a reminder token if I notice the other card enter play? And everyone else should be notified to keep an eye out so they don't accidentally keep it a secret if the card enters play on their turn? What a fiddly little rule. And it's on more than one card, referring to more than one other named card! There are cards with effects that are only triggered if you've already played a specific class, but then go on to only have an effect if you also have specific cards left in your hand. I won't dig into the "Flip a coin" (coin not included) situation, but they couldn't do it like other Legendary games and go with "Reveal the top card of [x] deck, if its [cost|attack|recruit] is even, do A. If it is odd, do B. (Zero counts as even.)"?

So many weirdly complicated effects. e.g.: Sleeveless Jack, a common card with 0 Recruit & 2 Attack, says: "If there is at least one Gracie Law card in the HQ, you gain +1 Recruit, and each other player with six or more cards must reveal a Gracie Law card or discard a card." What a weird stack of conditionals. What a weird number of cards whose effects interrupt the normal, fast-paced gameplay by making you and other players dig through a discard pile or reveal all your hands or whatever before the game can proceed.

I meant to just reply about the Final Showdown. Sorry about the little rant, I guess. BTiLC wasn't on our list of games to get (despite owning every other Legendary thing but F4&3D) because neither my wife nor myself really even remember the film, but because I've been working on comprehensive divider labels for all Legendary games I had to look over all the cards (I'm still looking or a rarities/classes list, if anyone with the game can help out!) and what I saw disappointed me. The best part (in our minds) about getting new Legendary games with different IPs is mixing them together. Playing the GotG against the Aliens, or alongside the crew of Serenity. Playing Villains against themselves by mixing Villains with the base game. Grabbing at least one card stack from every different IP/set during setup for a crazy/fun mashup game, or transplanting a single character into a world they're unfamiliar with. But BTiLC, in addition to having a lot of weird, fiddly rules which don't match established Legendary effects & conditionals, does so in a way which limits its ability to be mixed with other Legendary games. Which makes it effectively a stand-alone game. Which means there's even less reason to add it to our Legendary collection.
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Adelin Dumitru
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More on the backlash against Final Showdown here:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1616581/final-blow-vs-final...

Regarding the matter of hero cards that interact only with other hero cards, Nick from Boardgamebrawl had a very interesting remark: they should have applied the treatment got by Jack Burton and Wang Chi (additional set of common cards) to all heroes, where one set of commons should have employed that powering up based on what heroes you used and the other to be more generic, in order to increase compatibiltiy with the Marvel sets.

So many lost opportunities...it's a shame.
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Adelin Dumitru
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Well, if i get the game i will ignore it, but it annoys me that it is mentioned on jack burton's rare gulp
 
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Antonio Capo
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I think it comes down to if you like the theme or not. I love the theme and have been able to enjoy the game despite its shortcomings. Its only 400 cards in the set, but i think they covered everything from the movie, and even some extra plots wasnt in the movie just to have more variety. Its strength is that it evokes theme and flavor, specially from the playmat.

Although i was really dissapointed to find out it wasnt intended to be solo playable, i have played two handed just fine. I completely disregard the Final Showdown rule too. Yes im in the "minority" that think thats its a bad design for coop.

Regarding the artwork, its a masterpiece compared to Legendary Firefly. The art is fine though it can be inconsistent with the Margo and Gracie Law artwork (which are good taken apart). Some of the art is beautiful and better than stills, for example:

 
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Brian Morris
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If you don't like the final showdown don't do it. We don't in my group. It's not a big deal imho.

Aside from that the rest of your complaints are valid I think. The artwork is very disappointing especially for me. The flavor of the film is such an important part of the game and yet much of the art bears almost no resemblance to the actors in the movie.

I also have found the game a bit easy to beat. We've played four games so far and had 4 easy wins. I was hoping for something more along the lines of the Aliens Legendary in terms of difficulty.
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Adelin Dumitru
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That's also disappointing to hear! I was hoping too for something at least similar to Legendary Villains in terms of difficulty, but it seems that this is not the case. Maybe Buffy will be a better reimplementation of the system than this one shake
 
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Mike K
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AdelinDumitru wrote:
That's also disappointing to hear! I was hoping too for something at least similar to Legendary Villains in terms of difficulty, but it seems that this is not the case. Maybe Buffy will be a better reimplementation of the system than this one shake


BUFFY??? what's this your on about? Are they doing a Buffy encounters cuz I would love that! Plus my missus hates Alien encounters, loves Marvel, and is a huge huge Buffy fan! Meaning Id probably get to game more at home each week lol. Please tell me so.
 
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Adelin Dumitru
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badmike01 wrote:
AdelinDumitru wrote:
That's also disappointing to hear! I was hoping too for something at least similar to Legendary Villains in terms of difficulty, but it seems that this is not the case. Maybe Buffy will be a better reimplementation of the system than this one shake


BUFFY??? what's this your on about? Are they doing a Buffy encounters cuz I would love that! Plus my missus hates Alien encounters, loves Marvel, and is a huge huge Buffy fan! Meaning Id probably get to game more at home each week lol. Please tell me so.


Legendary Buffy will be based on the Legendary system (not Encounters, but the one used in Big Trouble and Marvel). It will be released in August 2017. further details are unknown (other than it will employ some sort of day-night cycle, with villains being tougher when it's night than when it's day).
 
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Mike K
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August 2017! Man thats gonna be a looong wait! And Nov for Aliens feels like an eternity to me still
 
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Antonio Capo
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mrbeankc wrote:

I also have found the game a bit easy to beat. We've played four games so far and had 4 easy wins. I was hoping for something more along the lines of the Aliens Legendary in terms of difficulty.

Agree on this and i suspect its because the game was designed with easier masterminds thinking the players will be sabotaging each other and not playing optimally coop. If you going to play strictly coop you will need to add some difficulty variants as introduced in Dark City:

New Challenge Modes If you want an even greater challenge, you can also try one or more of these ten new optional Challenge Modes.Combining a Mastermind, a Scheme, and a Challenge Mode provides an even greater number of combinations. Beware: some Challenge Modes are crushingly difficult!
1) Gimpy Hand: Each player’s hand size is five cards instead of six.
2) Opening Salvo 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6: At the beginning of the game, each player gains that many Wounds.
3) Growing Threat: The Mastermind gets +1 each time they are defeated.
4) Army of Evil 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5: Each Villain gets + equal to that number.
5) Endless Hatred: Whenever you complete a Scheme Twist, also play the Mastermind’s Master Strike ability.
6) Evacuate the Wounded: Whenever a Hero you own is KO’d, you gain a Wound.
7) Final Blow: After you defeat the Mastermind’s four Tactics, you must still fight them a fifth time to claim the actual Mastermind card and win.
8) Plots upon Plots: Whenever you complete a Scheme Twist, play another card from the Villain Deck. 9) Pain upon Pain: Whenever you complete a Master Strike, play another card from the Villain Deck. 10) Hell on Earth: Play two cards from the Villain Deck each turn instead of one.

Also you can combine certain villains, schemes and masterminds so they synergize better and make the game harder. For example Chin Dai mastermind combined with the Wink Kong Thugs will quickly fill his stack of koed zero cost heroes making him an easy 13 attack really quick. Combine that with the Enforce Villanous Hierarchy scheme and the decisions to attack the villains versus allowing them to escape gets harder.
 
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Kevin Jonas

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antoniocapo wrote:
mrbeankc wrote:

I also have found the game a bit easy to beat. We've played four games so far and had 4 easy wins. I was hoping for something more along the lines of the Aliens Legendary in terms of difficulty.

Agree on this and i suspect its because the game was designed with easier masterminds thinking the players will be sabotaging each other and not playing optimally coop.

I am thinking this also. It is meant to not be played co-op, just each player is working on the same goals. I ended up with the Egg that allows me to acquire the top hero card. I happen to get the 8 cost Margo for free with that and a 6 attack card. I thinned my deck and there was no stopping me unless you purposely tried to KO heroes in my hand. That Margo card is really powerful. I ended up winning in points twice what the other players had. The Margo cards allows you to look at the top three cards of the villain deck. Any villains are automatically defeated. Unless we played that wrong I was consistently getting 2-3 villains when I played that card. It felt OP, it felt like we misunderstood it. It made beating the game really easy.
 
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Mokey D Luffy
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badmike01 wrote:
August 2017! Man thats gonna be a looong wait! And Nov for Aliens feels like an eternity to me still


I was all excited when I heard about the Buffy game at GenCon not long after picking this one up. After playing this one, I am certain that I will not be picking up the Buffy version, and that makes me sad.
 
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Mike K
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Mokey D Luffy wrote:
badmike01 wrote:
August 2017! Man thats gonna be a looong wait! And Nov for Aliens feels like an eternity to me still


I was all excited when I heard about the Buffy game at GenCon not long after picking this one up. After playing this one, I am certain that I will not be picking up the Buffy version, and that makes me sad.


Aw man dont tell me that! Im trying to stay positive about this one! lol. I mean BTILC is a cult classic but dont under estimate the massiveness of the Buffy fandom, hopefully they wont screw the pooch so to say.

On the other hand UD musthave people who read and report feedback back to somebody about their products, how else would they know how somethings being recieved? It cant just be purely sales based can it? I mean even the stinkyest game can sell a few thousand units before people catch on so to speak.
 
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Ginaz Swordsman
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The game is perfectly fine.

On the fence? Then don't buy.

Don't like Final Showdown? Then don't play it. Anyone heard of House Rules?
 
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Adelin Dumitru
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Obviously we have not heard of them! Please do enlighten us!
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Brian Morris
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antoniocapo wrote:
mrbeankc wrote:

I also have found the game a bit easy to beat. We've played four games so far and had 4 easy wins. I was hoping for something more along the lines of the Aliens Legendary in terms of difficulty.

Agree on this and i suspect its because the game was designed with easier masterminds thinking the players will be sabotaging each other and not playing optimally coop.


Not at all. I play with my best friend and his sons. We show no mercy what so ever in games. They were still easy wins.

I still enjoy the game as I am a huge fan of the film. I'm still disappointed however and I wouldn't recommend the game to people who aren't fans of the film.
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Antonio Capo
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AdelinDumitru wrote:
Obviously we have not heard of them! Please do enlighten us!

He house ruled that being on the fence means dont buy.
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Christoph K
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mrbeankc wrote:
antoniocapo wrote:
mrbeankc wrote:

I also have found the game a bit easy to beat. We've played four games so far and had 4 easy wins. I was hoping for something more along the lines of the Aliens Legendary in terms of difficulty.

Agree on this and i suspect its because the game was designed with easier masterminds thinking the players will be sabotaging each other and not playing optimally coop.


Not at all. I play with my best friend and his sons. We show no mercy what so ever in games. They were still easy wins.

I still enjoy the game as I am a huge fan of the film. I'm still disappointed however and I wouldn't recommend the game to people who aren't fans of the film.


I consider myself quite a fan of the movie myself. In fact, when I look up from my screen, I see this framed movie poster.

And that's the main reason why I'm having such a hard time to get on board with this one. I really hoped to see artwork at least half as good in this game, but if you take a look at this thread, it's obvious that the characters depicted aren't Kurt Russell or Kim Catrall.
I can only guess that they may have had the license for the movie but did not get the rights to depict those two actors. But the thing is, (at least for me) those two really make the movie shine and a BTilC without the original Jack Burton is just missing its soul. And I know I'd just feel disappointed everytime I look at the cards. Add the whole 'not really meant for solo play' thing and I simply have to pass on the game even though I love the movie.

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Bloody Cactus
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I would pass on it. I preordered I was so excited but it just sucks. They were really reaching to get the hero count (the truck + the faux character of Henry Swanson). Even Mao Yin + Margot + Eddie is reaching for it to make them heroes but they are workable if not like their movie counterparts. Its not like you point to Eddie in the movie and be, That guy is one of the heroes!

I totally regret buying this game period. Maybe if they make an Escape New York box that works with this one.. but it just feels like it really needs more, it feels very thin on gameplay to me.

I own no other legendary games so came into this with no idea of what I was really getting.

The no solo play was REALLY disappointing to me.
 
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Antonio Capo
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But..Henry Swanson is my favorite

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Adelin Dumitru
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I mean..it's not deductible, is it?
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Please, we all know how this is going to end Adelin... You are going to buy this game, and it is going to become your new favorite Legendary expansion. <____<
 
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