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Subject: #2 in BGG Ranking rss

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Florian Trabert
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Probably the "story" will end here, because Pandemic Legacy seems to be out of reach, but the new TTA is now #2 in the BGG ranking. Congratulations to Vlaada, CGE and everybody involved in the revision process and thanks for this outstanding game! meeple
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Jordan Rutherford
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I don't know. I have faith. It's going all the way.
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Siegfried Steurer
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JRufu wrote:
I don't know. I have faith. It's going all the way.


Definetely will.

At the end of the year, we will have

1 TTA
2 PL
3 Scythe
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Drew Bowling
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I don't know- Scythe isn't quite on the same trajectory as the other two.
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Chris M
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The TS people must have rating bombed as a last ditch effort. It's back to #3.
 
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Clyde W
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David S.
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Eisenhorn0223 wrote:
The TS people must have rating bombed as a last ditch effort. It's back to #3.


Too bad they can't do that to 'Pandemic let's play over and over again'
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Mathue Faulk
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Malekous wrote:
Eisenhorn0223 wrote:
The TS people must have rating bombed as a last ditch effort. It's back to #3.


Too bad they can't do that to 'Pandemic let's play over and over again'

Oh, Pandemic Legacy got A TON of hate votes. Any game that hits the top is going to get them.
 
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Grant
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jvdv wrote:

And another reminder that it is time for BGG to start rolling up versions in one entry. Of course it's not easy to do so, but having the same game* at number 9 and number 2 in the ranking is ridiculous.

* yes there are differences and no they are not fundamental, no way near fundamental enough to consider them different games

Here we go with this again. There are many good, practical reasons why it makes sense to separate them. Here are just a few:
-buying, selling, and trading
-rules questions
-images
-files
-strategy discussion

Keep in mind that ratings and rankings are ultimately pretty meaningless, but the above points are all things that actually affect people (buying selling and trading in particular).

The annoyance of having two versions of the same game in the top ten is not more important than the value created by keeping them separate.
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Jesper Jørgensen
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grant5 wrote:


Here we go with this again. There are many good, practical reasons why it makes sense to separate them. Here are just a few:
-buying, selling, and trading
-rules questions
-images
-files
-strategy discussion

Keep in mind that ratings and rankings are ultimately pretty meaningless, but the above points are all things that actually affect people (buying selling and trading in particular).

The annoyance of having two versions of the same game in the top ten is not more important than the value created by keeping them separate.


I totally agree that your points are valid in regards to separating the games in two listings.

To me it has been quite puzzling to see that BGG fails to use the version section in the entries in other sections of BGG.

By this I mean, when making a new thread in the forum, you must assign with version the thread refers to.
Review of TTA the 2nd Polish edition or review of the 1st edition of TTA-ANSoC.

Looking up a game in the current system, regardless of that game's listing was/has been joined, I don't know if the questions raised regards to a specific version or a subset of the versions already released.

I would imaging that assigning the version tag should be public or semi-public (only user with "Patron(current year)" for instance) , so all threads are tagged with the most recent version (in english) other users can then refine the selection.
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Kester J
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grant5 wrote:


Keep in mind that ratings and rankings are ultimately pretty meaningless, but the above points are all things that actually affect people (buying selling and trading in particular).

The annoyance of having two versions of the same game in the top ten is not more important than the value created by keeping them separate.


I have to take issue with the idea that the rankings "don't affect people". I know at least three people who played a couple of board games, enjoyed them, and then bought Twilight Struggle because it was #1 on BGG. As you might imagine, it was appropriate for none of them, and I'd wager that that sort of population is significantly bigger than the population of people who trade games on BGG.

Still, optimising the site functionality for activities other than ranking is a valid choice, but I do wish that seeing as that's the case, the rankings at least came with a prominent health warning that they don't mean much of anything.
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mfl134
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jvdv wrote:

And another reminder that it is time for BGG to start rolling up versions in one entry. Of course it's not easy to do so, but having the same game* at number 9 and number 2 in the ranking is ridiculous.

* yes there are differences and no they are not fundamental, no way near fundamental enough to consider them different games


or make an adjustment for selection bias. TTA2 and PL are up high because they are solid and because they were mostly played by people likely to enjoy the game as TTA and Pandemic probably already turned off people likely to hate it. Same with Caverna which is fairly high.

Separately, if the rankings were adjusted properly, you wouldn't need to worry about rolling up versions. Now that TTA2 is out, rankings of TTA should plummet to never play again, as many people would always choose TTA2 over it.
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Grant
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Kester wrote:
grant5 wrote:


Keep in mind that ratings and rankings are ultimately pretty meaningless, but the above points are all things that actually affect people (buying selling and trading in particular).

The annoyance of having two versions of the same game in the top ten is not more important than the value created by keeping them separate.


I have to take issue with the idea that the rankings "don't affect people". I know at least three people who played a couple of board games, enjoyed them, and then bought Twilight Struggle because it was #1 on BGG. As you might imagine, it was appropriate for none of them, and I'd wager that that sort of population is significantly bigger than the population of people who trade games on BGG.

Still, optimising the site functionality for activities other than ranking is a valid choice, but I do wish that seeing as that's the case, the rankings at least came with a prominent health warning that they don't mean much of anything.

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Peter Hendee
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Two games from the last Essen at the top of the rankings seems unprecedented. Cult of the new getting stronger? Or just selection bias (in the ratings) hitting two games hard in the same year?
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David S.
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PeterHendee wrote:
Two games from the last Essen at the top of the rankings seems unprecedented. Cult of the new getting stronger? Or just selection bias (in the ratings) hitting two games hard in the same year?


Both are from games already very highly ranked. Pandemic adds a lot of new features to the game, but I don't understand it in the 1 spot. The new TTA's previous version was sitting at 3-4 for a long time. So an improved version should be higher ranked.

Yes they're both new, but I'd hardly call them cult of the new as they're new and better versions of previous editions.
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Quintious .
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I think the thing TTA's ascendancy proves is the theory that the rating system is broken in light of "new" games that are simply re-hashes of the old version with a couple of tweaks are going to be unnaturally highly rated. The people who are going to buy - and rate - these games are the people who already know they enjoy the game. The organic "I gave it a try, and didn't really care for it" that is automatically built in to any standalone game is largely culled, because people who didn't like TTA before know they aren't going to like it now, so won't even bother playing it.
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Chris Schumann
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I agree that most of the early ratings are from folks who loved the old version. But, just as one oddity, I bought this because I wanted a good civ game, and this came out at the right time... and I happen to enjoy it, but not as much as those who know it well do.
 
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Nathan Clegg
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New editions are bound to outrank their predecessors (unless the execution is extremely flawed) because most people who didn't like the earlier edition won't play and rate the new edition, leading to fewer negative ratings and an overall higher average rating.

In this case, at this time, 2nd edition has more than 50% of 10 ratings that 1st has, but only 10% as many 6 ratings.
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that Matt
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Quintious wrote:
The people who are going to buy - and rate - these games are the people who already know they enjoy the game.

moramis wrote:
New editions are bound to outrank their predecessors (unless the execution is extremely flawed) because most people who didn't like the earlier edition will play and rate the new edition

Hmmm.
 
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Anders Isaksen
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Quintious wrote:
I think the thing TTA's ascendancy proves is the theory that the rating system is broken in light of "new" games that are simply re-hashes of the old version with a couple of tweaks are going to be unnaturally highly rated. The people who are going to buy - and rate - these games are the people who already know they enjoy the game. The organic "I gave it a try, and didn't really care for it" that is automatically built in to any standalone game is largely culled, because people who didn't like TTA before know they aren't going to like it now, so won't even bother playing it.


The tweaks to TTA aswell as the new art make it a quiet substantial change to the original.

It's a fantastic game. No conspiracy theory needed.
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Grant
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Sephakay wrote:
Quintious wrote:
I think the thing TTA's ascendancy proves is the theory that the rating system is broken in light of "new" games that are simply re-hashes of the old version with a couple of tweaks are going to be unnaturally highly rated. The people who are going to buy - and rate - these games are the people who already know they enjoy the game. The organic "I gave it a try, and didn't really care for it" that is automatically built in to any standalone game is largely culled, because people who didn't like TTA before know they aren't going to like it now, so won't even bother playing it.


The tweaks to TTA aswell as the new art make it a quiet substantial change to the original.

It's a fantastic game. No conspiracy theory needed.

It's not a conspiracy theory, it's just basic statistics. Games that are re-implementations of existing systems are going to have an automatic built in selection bias.
It's probably impossible to quantify, but it exists. I mean, three of the top five games are re-implementations.

But I think the bigger point is.... so what? The rankings have ALL KINDS of biases built in, this is just but one. The rankings are not gospel, they're just a fun thing to watch. Nobody should get bent out of shape over this.
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Dean L
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moramis wrote:
New editions are bound to outrank their predecessors (unless the execution is extremely flawed) because most people who didn't like the earlier edition will play and rate the new edition, leading to fewer negative ratings and an overall higher average rating.

In this case, at this time, 2nd edition has more than 50% of 10 ratings that 1st has, but only 10% as many 6 ratings.


Initially true. But over time as more people discover and start using the site, and decide to give the game a go because of the high rank, it'll then have to stand on its own merits. This normally means the rating will fall a little.

Same happened with Twilight Struggle, and is happening with Pandemic Legacy right now - just that they managed to impress most of the people who decided to give them a go. TS now has more ratings than the original TTA had.
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Jesse
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Eisenhorn0223 wrote:
The TS people must have rating bombed as a last ditch effort. It's back to #3.


Of the 26 ratings for '1', 10 were made in August. Surprise, surprise: all of the users have TS at a '10'.

Bullshit I say. Who is so pathetic that they hate vote a game to prolong their game's place for a smidgen longer? If only BGG would weed them out.
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atomheartmother wrote:
If only BGG would weed them out.


We can't move on until people have answered for what they've done.
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Anders Isaksen
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atomheartmother wrote:
Eisenhorn0223 wrote:
The TS people must have rating bombed as a last ditch effort. It's back to #3.


Of the 26 ratings for '1', 10 were made in August. Surprise, surprise: all of the users have TS at a '10'.

Bullshit I say. Who is so pathetic that they hate vote a game to prolong their game's place for a smidgen longer? If only BGG would weed them out.



Its insane that someone are so stupid that they waste time hate voting on games because of a ranking.
But as long as the ranking system works the way it does you will see this behavior.
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