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Subject: Voting rights and Felons rss

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Mike Stiles
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I'm just curious if this is a partisan thing, or more general.

Where do people come down on felons losing the right to vote after doing their time?

(Inspired & topical by Gov. McAuliffe going through all of those cases in VA).
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They should be able to vote after time served,. They are still citizens
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J
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What he said.
 
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Christopher Seguin
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SpaceGhost wrote:
They should be able to vote after time served,. They are still citizens


What about gun ownership? Do you believe Second Amendment rights shouild also be restored?
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Kelsey Rinella
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chrisnd wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
They should be able to vote after time served,. They are still citizens


What about gun ownership? Do you believe Second Amendment rights shouild also be restored?


Not if their crime involved them being violent. I would think sentences could be shorter if there were a delay after their incarceration before they could own guns. Otherwise, I'm uncommitted. Good question, though.
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I believe that after ones debt to society by serving time is over, including reasonable probation, ones rights as a citizen should be fully reatored
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Damian
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chrisnd wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
They should be able to vote after time served,. They are still citizens


What about gun ownership? Do you believe Second Amendment rights shouild also be restored?

Yes, automatic penalties should be removed once incarceration/supervision is over. Removing firearms rights shouldn't be impossible, but it shouldn't be automatic either.
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chrisnd wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
They should be able to vote after time served,. They are still citizens


What about gun ownership? Do you believe Second Amendment rights shouild also be restored?


Yes. Unless there are extenuating circumstances. It should be difficult to permanently remove a citizens rights
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Rebus Carnival
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I believe every state has some form of restoration available to felons. I don't see any reason that they should not have to pass some recidivism test before getting a say in what laws are passed.

The argument against full restoration after release goes something like
"you couldn't live by the laws we already passed, why should you get to pass laws for other people."

Do we want murderers, rapists and crooks deciding who will police them? I'm not sure I find the argument that "they are citizens too" to be compelling.

Why should someone who has violated their community's rules be placed back in charge of it? Do we honestly think prison is correcting the problem?

All caveats (ie like not all laws are just) accepted in advance.

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rebuscarnival wrote:
I believe every state has some form of restoration available to felons. I don't see any reason that they should not have to pass some recidivism test before getting a say in what laws are passed.

The argument against full restoration after release goes something like
"you couldn't live by the laws we already passed, why should you get to pass laws for other people."

Do we want murderers, rapists and crooks deciding who will police them? I'm not sure I find the argument that "they are citizens too" to be compelling.

Why should someone who has violated their community's rules be placed back in charge of it? Do we honestly think prison is correcting the problem?

All caveats (ie like not all laws are just) accepted in advance.



Nothing says "we want to reintegrate you into society in a positive fashion" like denying somebody their rights.

Either the debt to society has been paid or not.
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Jon Badolato
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I'm all for restoring voting rights but the restoration of rights to own firearms should be contingent on the crime committed which resulted in the incarceration. Got busted for tax evasion. Go ahead, get the gun. Got busted for armed robbery or assault with a gun in your possession and no, you should have the right to own a gun removed or strictly curtailed.
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Rebus Carnival
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SpaceGhost wrote:
rebuscarnival wrote:
I believe every state has some form of restoration available to felons. I don't see any reason that they should not have to pass some recidivism test before getting a say in what laws are passed.

The argument against full restoration after release goes something like
"you couldn't live by the laws we already passed, why should you get to pass laws for other people."

Do we want murderers, rapists and crooks deciding who will police them? I'm not sure I find the argument that "they are citizens too" to be compelling.

Why should someone who has violated their community's rules be placed back in charge of it? Do we honestly think prison is correcting the problem?

All caveats (ie like not all laws are just) accepted in advance.



Nothing says "we want to reintegrate you into society in a positive fashion" like denying somebody their rights.

Either the debt to society has been paid or not.


Again, all states have a method to allow this, under review of the courts. I'm certain some are more difficult than others to pursue.

I think you are allowing a metaphor to become your reality. Prison is not a return on damages incurred by the public. It is a punishment for breaking the rules. The rules are in place to keep people safe. Penalties are meant to deter and to punish behavior not in keeping with public welfare. You get to vote for what behaviors should be punished.

Recidivism rates are high. This is not a metaphor. People who commit crimes tend to commit more crimes. It is likely that time served has not corrected behaviors which lead to incarceration.
 
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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It wouldn't be such a grey area if they didn't overuse felonies as a punishment.
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rebuscarnival wrote:
Recidivism rates are high. This is not a metaphor. People who commit crimes tend to commit more crimes. It is likely that time served has not corrected behaviors which lead to incarceration.

Do you think there might be a reason for that beyond the facile, "they're criminals"?
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Rebus Carnival
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rebuscarnival wrote:
All caveats (ie like not all laws are just) accepted in advance.
 
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Oliver Dienz
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rebuscarnival wrote:


Recidivism rates are high. This is not a metaphor. People who commit crimes tend to commit more crimes. It is likely that time served has not corrected behaviors which lead to incarceration.

The problem with the US system is that it sentences people for lengthy prison sentences for what would other countries consider minor offenses. Couple that with high recidivism rates and you have the highest imprisoned population rate. Other Western countries concentrate instead on social services and rehabilitation to achieve a much better integration of their released prisoners back into society. Without such programs "time served" is not really a deterrent when the life outside is not much better. Especially juvenile offenders are rarely helped by being sent to prison.
 
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Rebus Carnival
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Through the power of google I provide with some data that you desire. I have only vetted it as a .gov website.
Quote:

Within three years of release, about two-thirds (67.8 percent) of released prisoners were rearrested.
Within five years of release, about three-quarters (76.6 percent) of released prisoners were rearrested.
Of those prisoners who were rearrested, more than half (56.7 percent) were arrested by the end of the first year.
Property offenders were the most likely to be rearrested, with 82.1 percent of released property offenders arrested for a new crime compared with 76.9 percent of drug offenders, 73.6 percent of public order offenders and 71.3 percent of violent offenders.


 
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Rebus Carnival
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odie73 wrote:
rebuscarnival wrote:


Recidivism rates are high. This is not a metaphor. People who commit crimes tend to commit more crimes. It is likely that time served has not corrected behaviors which lead to incarceration.

The problem with the US system is that it sentences people for lengthy prison sentences for what would other countries consider minor offenses. Couple that with high recidivism rates and you have the highest imprisoned population rate. Other Western countries concentrate instead on social services and rehabilitation to achieve a much better integration of their released prisoners back into society. Without such programs "time served" is not really a deterrent when the life outside is not much better. Especially juvenile offenders are rarely helped by being sent to prison.


I am not arguing about the merits and failings of the justice system, only that people who repeatedly commit crimes should not get to vote for what is considered a crime.
 
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Oliver Dienz
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windsagio wrote:
I'm just curious if this is a partisan thing, or more general.

Where do people come down on felons losing the right to vote after doing their time?

(Inspired & topical by Gov. McAuliffe going through all of those cases in VA).


Voting rights should not be suspended even when in prison. As a member of a society you still have a voice in establishing the common rules especially when a rule violation brought you into prison in the first place. Germany still allows felons to vote (unless in very severe cases like crimes against the nation) and I doubt they are the only ones.

And, please, abolish that ridiculous sex-offender registry. It was never a good idea to begin with (unless you want to make people criminals because they cannot get a job and have normal social contacts) but has become a tool to punish people for life for essentially nothing: http://www.businessinsider.com/surprising-things-that-could-...
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Oliver Dienz
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rebuscarnival wrote:
odie73 wrote:
rebuscarnival wrote:


Recidivism rates are high. This is not a metaphor. People who commit crimes tend to commit more crimes. It is likely that time served has not corrected behaviors which lead to incarceration.

The problem with the US system is that it sentences people for lengthy prison sentences for what would other countries consider minor offenses. Couple that with high recidivism rates and you have the highest imprisoned population rate. Other Western countries concentrate instead on social services and rehabilitation to achieve a much better integration of their released prisoners back into society. Without such programs "time served" is not really a deterrent when the life outside is not much better. Especially juvenile offenders are rarely helped by being sent to prison.


I am not arguing about the merits and failings of the justice system, only that people who repeatedly commit crimes should not get to vote for what is considered a crime.


So according to your argument a gay person who is sent to prison for being gay is not allowed to vote against outlawing sending gays to prison? How about criminals who cannot get a job due to the requirement to disclose their criminal record? What about members of a racial minority sent to prison because they demanded the same rights as the majority?

(Edit: Corrected quote.)
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Mike Stiles
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oldie, quoting yourself is confusing the hell out of me.
 
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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As for the gun thing, I think it's reasonable to restrict ownership but to retain their right to be issued a weapon by their local militia in time of need.
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Everyone should have the right to vote, own a gun, and get married, and smoke weed. Gay, Felon, or otherwise.
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Rebus Carnival
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odie73 wrote:
odie73 wrote:
windsagio wrote:
I'm just curious if this is a partisan thing, or more general.

Where do people come down on felons losing the right to vote after doing their time?

(Inspired & topical by Gov. McAuliffe going through all of those cases in VA).


Voting rights should not be suspended even when in prison. As a member of a society you still have a voice in establishing the common rules especially when a rule violation brought you into prison in the first place. Germany still allows felons to vote (unless in very severe cases like crimes against the nation) and I doubt they are the only ones.

And, please, abolish that ridiculous sex-offender registry. It was never a good idea to begin with (unless you want to make people criminals because they cannot get a job and have normal social contacts) but has become a tool to punish people for life for essentially nothing: http://www.businessinsider.com/surprising-things-that-could-...


So according to your argument a gay person who is sent to prison for being gay is not allowed to vote against outlawing sending gays to prison? How about criminals who cannot get a job due to the requirement to disclose their criminal record? What about members of a racial minority sent to prison because they demanded the same rights as the majority?


I assume you meant to quote my statement.

As previously stated, there are avenues in every state for felons to regain their voting rights.

Are there gay people being imprisoned in the United States for their sexuality today? If not, when was the last time that someone was imprisoned for being gay? I suspect that in the USA this has never been a major issue, but I am happy to hear evidence otherwise.

Presuming you are talking about the civil rights movement of the 1960s, if they didn't have the right to vote before they went to jail, I fail to see how they could have it reinstated when they got out. Is this a serious question? If you talking about less tangible rights, you will have to provide some examples.

I assume these victim groups are chosen for emotional effect. You will find that my robotic bear heart has no room for pity.

I can see no reason that an employer should not ask for a potential employee's criminal record. It is common sense that a bank would not hire a bank robber, and that a nursery would not hire a plant molester. Again, is this a serious question?


EDIT: Happy to hear evidence otherwise.
 
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SpaceGhost wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:
They should be able to vote after time served,. They are still citizens


What about gun ownership? Do you believe Second Amendment rights shouild also be restored?


Yes. Unless there are extenuating circumstances. It should be difficult to permanently remove a citizens rights


You can't really kill, maim or rape someone with a hanging chit. Well, maybe a ninja could, but...

Seriously, aren't these fundamentally different when it comes to felons, particularly felons who used firearms to commit a crime? I'm not that into restricting gun rights, but this one doesn't seem that hard to parse. Particularly given repeat crimes. So maybe don't make it all felons. Then maybe we'll be close to the same page.

I'm always bemused when Second Amendment people view these situations as identical, particularly where we are talking about those people who are bad gun owners.

And, dude, conviction ain't a cake walk. So the argument that it should be "difficult to permanently remove a citizens rights"? Yes, that's nice. The person got due process. They surely should readily get back rights based on time served if those rights aren't involving firearms access which landed them in prison in the first place.

I'm not saying deny them permanently, but there should be a period given the repeat rate.
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