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Shadowrun: Crossfire» Forums » General

Subject: Should a new player start with the expansion mixed in? rss

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Christopher
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I've had my eye on Crossfire for years but finally took the plunge. Should I also snag the expansion and mix it in to start or should I play the base game a while first?
 
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Mark Meyer
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Play with the base only at first. If you are new to deck builders than grab the Demo Play rules which pare down the decks even more. I will say that there are much better starter Missions in the expansions than what comes in the core set. Any Mission can be run with any combination of cards, just be aware of its difficulty level.
 
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Christopher
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tekwych wrote:
Play with the base only at first. If you are new to deck builders than grab the Demo Play rules which pare down the decks even more. I will say that there are much better starter Missions in the expansions than what comes in the core set. Any Mission can be run with any combination of cards, just be aware of its difficulty level.


I've played deckbuilders extensively so I'm familiar with the structure, I'm more referring to how some games should be appreciated as they are before layering on expansions as things get stale. Other games have expansions that "fix" the base game and should be integrated from day 1. I've heard this game described both ways, hence my confusion.
 
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Reggie P
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My group had a ton of fun with the base game before we mixed in the expansion. We had the base game for most of the time it was out, and we wanted to play all the time for a long time before the expansion was even announced. From our perspective, there was nothing wrong with the base game. The expansion does add some intriguing options and great variety, but by no means did the game require it. Eventually you'll want it, but don't be fooled into thinking you have to have it to have a good time. I think some (not all) of the people who felt it was required were those who felt the game was too punishing to begin with, but I really enjoy an extremely difficult game where it feels like a real accomplishment when you succeed.
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Iain
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I would definitely say play the base game first. I think I got about 15-20 plays before I mixed in HCO.

My reasons are:
- The base game is HARD and it gives you a good understanding of play style and strategy. HCO adds cards which mitigate the difficulty somewhat so I feel as though that way works better, as opposed to immediately making the game easier.
- There are some additional mechanisms, card types, enemy types etc in HCO so would be easier to figure the game out with base only.
- As with any expansion, it adds new life, so adding it straight away kind of removes that ability to refresh up the game.
- The missions in the base game are still the best ones IMO.

Just my thoughts
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Daily Grind
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My first game included the expansion, and I don't regret it. At the very least, use the Ancients mission from the expansion which is much more suited for a new player. The expansion makes the game more balanced, why wouldn't you want that ?
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Chris Gordy
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Personally, I don't think the expansion added too many unique mechanics or complexity as compared to the base set. As a result, I personally really don't think there is any reason to NOT include it, other than if you don't have it.

I will say, I do disagree with the idea to play it when it is more difficult to get an appreciation then add the expansion which helps mitigate some of that difficulty. Personally, I think it would be better to start at the easier end immediately, otherwise some people get offput with losing so much up front that they decide that this is not their game (I have had 2 people from my group decide that this was not their game only because it was too challenging at first - had it been a little easier they might still be playing).

Honestly I like the game, it has some interesting mechanics that make it a little bit different from many deckbuilders out there, not to mention the upgrade mechanic. The one thing I have disliked about the game is the GLACIAL pace at which Catalytic supports the game. One real expansion in almost 2 years so far. I would much prefer an expansion along the lines of Legendary, once every 3-4 months. Especially as a card game, the cost ti produce should not be that high (relative to component heavy games).
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Eric Christensen
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I think you should add in the expansion. That mission, "Against the Ancients" or something like that, is very similar to vanilla Crossfire, but bends just a bit more than Crossfire to get you in the swing of things. I watched several videos of the base game and got very familiar with the mechanics and gameplay. Then when I purchased it, I added in the expansion. Nothing at all card wise seemed any more complex in the expansion. It just seemed like more cool stuff to do.

This game really is criminally underrated and deserves more expansions on the regular.
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Jeff T
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The only reason I would say play the base game first is to avoid spending money on the expansion if Crossfire turns out not to be for you. Other than that, the new expansion stuff layers in smoothly without distracting and adds a bunch of cards I really like. Feel free to add it as soon as you realize Crossfire is a keeper.
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B C Z
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HCO Completes the game.

If you own it, use it.
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Barry
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With the blended Black Market cards it adds a little more versatility to player options, but by adding more cards too it might reduce your chance of drawing one of the few healing cards. So in that regard it's almost a moot point.

If you want to play 2 player it makes it a little more feasible with the 2 new archetypes that each blend the 2 of the original 4.

The Against the Ancients mission is really what should have come in the base game. It's not easy enough to say it has "training wheels on" but it is noticeably easier than the Crossfire mission. For this alone I'd say if you have it put it in. It helps you to learn all the cards and have that carrot dangling to keep people interested to build a campaign.

If you don't have it and you might buy it, buy it.

The biggest down side to a new player using the expansion is the overload of new cards to read and recognize. This is the biggest thing that keeps new people I introduce this game to from coming back. They are overwhelmed by all the card options.
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B C Z
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Number of Black Market Cards in BASE: 60
"Healing Cards":
Covering Fire (3)
Doc Wagon Contract (3)

Odds that any given card is a "healing card": 6/60 = 10%

Number of cards total if you include HCO: 90
"Healing Cards":
Covering Fire (3)
Doc Wagon Contract (3)
Shield Drone (2)
Heart of the Team (2)

Odds that any given card is a "healing card": 10/90 = 11%


By that math, and given there are more methods in HCO that allow you to cycle the Black Market Offer quickly -- the odds of getting "healing card" *increases* with the inclusion of HCO.

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Christopher
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Nachofan wrote:


The biggest down side to a new player using the expansion is the overload of new cards to read and recognize. This is the biggest thing that keeps new people I introduce this game to from coming back. They are overwhelmed by all the card options.


Isn't that true of any new card game though?
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B C Z
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HCO added a total of 30 cards to the 60 card Black Market Deck, and there are duplicates in there. It's really not that much more.

As said - if you own it already, use it. If you don't, then play with what you have until you do - then add it.
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Christopher
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byronczimmer wrote:
HCO added a total of 30 cards to the 60 card Black Market Deck, and there are duplicates in there. It's really not that much more.

As said - if you own it already, use it. If you don't, then play with what you have until you do - then add it.


I have the base game on the way, and can have the expansion in my hands by the time the base game arrives if I like. I guess I'll just grab the expansion and start with it all mixed together.
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Tom Eklund
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SpoDaddy wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
HCO added a total of 30 cards to the 60 card Black Market Deck, and there are duplicates in there. It's really not that much more.

As said - if you own it already, use it. If you don't, then play with what you have until you do - then add it.


I have the base game on the way, and can have the expansion in my hands by the time the base game arrives if I like. I guess I'll just grab the expansion and start with it all mixed together.


We did that from game 1, never played without the expansion and never regretted it.
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Patrick Flanagan
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Just buy it all!!! It is that good a game
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Christopher
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We mixed it all together today for our first game, Against the Ancients. Played twice, got demolished both times in 2 player games. One fail, one successful abort.
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Daily Grind
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SpoDaddy wrote:
We mixed it all together today for our first game, Against the Ancients. Played twice, got demolished both times in 2 player games. One fail, one successful abort.

That sounds about right Hope they were fun at least.

I think if I had started with crossfire instead of Against the Ancients I would have gotten too discouraged rather than fired up to beat the sucker.
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B C Z
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SpoDaddy wrote:
We mixed it all together today for our first game, Against the Ancients. Played twice, got demolished both times in 2 player games. One fail, one successful abort.


Par for the course.

How many players, what role/race choices?

 
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Christopher
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Played again today, demolished.

2 players, Ork Street Sam/Hacker and Human Mage/Face.

I'm not sure what relevance the dual roles have in play with 2 players; only one starting deck gets picked after all. Is it solely to determine which player gets the first new obstacle at the start of a scene?
 
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Sar Athas
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Exactly. Also, some obstacles and Crossfire cards refer to the roles. This way they always have a target.
Characters starting with 2 roles also receive an additional Nuyen at the start of the game. This is relevant mostly in a 3 player game, where the person to pick 2 roles is endangered more to get the first obstacle /more obstacles than other players*, but gets the additional Nuyen, which may come in handy.

*For example, they get 2 obstacles at scene 2 of the Crossfire mission.
 
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B C Z
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Your role(s) determine:

Where the first obstacle each scene attacks.
Where certain effects land. For example an obstacle might attack the player it's currently facing AND the Street Samurai.

It also determines your starting deck of 7 cards.
The base 4 roles all start with 4 of their 'on color' card and one of each of the others.
The expansion dual-color role start with 3 cards in each of their two colors and one additional card, meaning they are void in a single color to start.

If you're playing 2 player a few things to remember:
1: Each player gets two roles (all primary colors have to be assigned). If playing with the hybrid, it's natural to take black/green and red/blue and then just pick your 'primary' role. Don't forget that each player with an extra role also gets +1 nuyen at the start. It doesn't seem like a lot, but it matters.

2: For each player under 4, put a marker on top of the crossfire deck. If there is a marker on the crossfire deck when you are supposed to draw one, remove a marker instead. This gives you a little bit of breathing room as you start the game and makes up for the fact that you start with fewer available damage cards in hand.

3: When a scene ends, everyone heals a hit point, the current crossfire buries to the bottom of the deck and if the 'first' player is the one who finished off the last obstacle, that means the 'second' player has a cross-fire free action after the next scene populates.

Keep at it - the first victory is very sweet.
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Ian Simpson
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byronczimmer wrote:

2: For each player under 4, put a marker on top of the crossfire deck. If there is a marker on the crossfire deck when you are supposed to draw one, remove a marker instead. This gives you a little bit of breathing room as you start the game and makes up for the fact that you start with fewer available damage cards in hand.


That rule is mission-dependant; it doesn't apply to the Extraction mission, for instance, where you get Crossfire cards from the get-go.
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B C Z
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MrPyro wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:

2: For each player under 4, put a marker on top of the crossfire deck. If there is a marker on the crossfire deck when you are supposed to draw one, remove a marker instead. This gives you a little bit of breathing room as you start the game and makes up for the fact that you start with fewer available damage cards in hand.


That rule is mission-dependant; it doesn't apply to the Extraction mission, for instance, where you get Crossfire cards from the get-go.


Extraction recommends 5 karma, and is unlikely to be the mission that is being attempted.

Extraction handles this differently by varying the difficulty of the obstacles in a "controlled" manner.
 
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