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Subject: Haven's Last Stand: Unbalanced or super unbalanced? rss

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Erik
United States
Massachusetts
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...in which the subject is mildly hyperbolic.

I've played Haven's Last Stand twice for my first two games of The Others; once as Pride, and once as heroes playing against Sloth, and both times I felt like the Sin player had no chance of winning.

In the first game we played the first map, and as Pride at first I felt very powerful because the heroes couldn't seem to accomplish much, largely because they were being a bit timid. But once they figured things out a bit and got more bold, and in particular once they figured out that they could die and not lose, I didn't see how I had any chance. In particular, the forces of good can walk a guy into the location with the avatar and die spectacularly, but as long as they managed to get seven fists the avatar dies and they earned 1 kill (leaving, at best, a controller and abomination (okay and maybe someone from the hell club, but you shouldn't count on that)). And, the penalty for dying isn't that great given that your new character is just as powerful as your old character and you don't start all that far away from stuff.

In the second game it was even worse because we played the second map. I was able to move anywhere I wanted to very quickly, and because I knew my characters are essentially ablative I used them boldly. To be fair, my opponent rolled terribly on all of the fire and corruption tokens, but even so I didn't see any way for Sloth to win since by the end of the third round I'd wiped the map nearly clean of Sloth's forces using the satellite and being bold, so when the avatar was summoned Sin was forced to pick the avatar, an abomination, and a doctor (who died nearly instantly to a ranged attack in which I automatically started off with two fists). My character that killed the avatar died along with, but it didn't matter since that kill got me the progress I needed and then I had an equally powerful character ready to go, and by the way standing on the satellite uplink.

Anyone having similar experiences? Are the other scenarios more balanced? Any possibility I'm missing something that makes the Sin player's life easier?

Thanks!
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Roland B.
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I've only played the game solo so far and out of 6 games, This scenario is the ONLY one where the Faith team won, and handily!
My initial impression thus far has been one of an uneven playing field overall. The game is undoubtedly fun but I'm wondering what the general consensus will be after more reviews and session reports trickle in.
The dreaded "houserule solution syndrome" may rear its ugly head.
 
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William Aull
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I destroyed the Faith as Gluttony in this scenario. Clever use of cards plus holing up is about the only way to win this one.
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Erik
United States
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Did luck play a factor in your victory too? Did the victory feel like it was by the skin of your teeth or decently reproducable?
 
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Mark Thompson
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But... but... but... you just need to hole up the Sin with a bunch of pentagram tokens and other mobs and you auto win... right??? right??!?!?!?


Sounds like your F.A.I.T.H. group is getting pretty good at their tactics. Were they blocking your card draw by controlling the altars? Otherwise, maybe be a bit more aggressive with your card play early to put the pressure on them? Did you remember to use the Acolyte ability as often as you could? (once per round?) Did you just fail miserably with your corruption/fire rolls? did you try and pin them to limit their movement (take a wound to leave/move through a monster space)? All those things add up over time.

Otherwise.. .put them on a redemption story and see how that messes with their tactics/strategy.
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J M
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The last time I played this mission- admittedly with the Old Town map tiles from one of the team boxes, the Faith team did a terrible job of coordinating and survived one turn from the avatar summon.
 
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Erik
United States
Massachusetts
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r0cky143 wrote:
But... but... but... you just need to hole up the Sin with a bunch of pentagram tokens and other mobs and you auto win... right??? right??!?!?!?


Sounds like your F.A.I.T.H. group is getting pretty good at their tactics. Were they blocking your card draw by controlling the altars? Otherwise, maybe be a bit more aggressive with your card play early to put the pressure on them? Did you remember to use the Acolyte ability as often as you could? (once per round?) Did you just fail miserably with your corruption/fire rolls? did you try and pin them to limit their movement (take a wound to leave/move through a monster space)? All those things add up over time.

Otherwise.. .put them on a redemption story and see how that messes with their tactics/strategy.


Heh... No. All I need is to kill your avatar, which isnt that hard for a red FAITH guy with enough upgrades... What your avatar does to them during that is irrelevant.

This was their first game, but they're experienced co-op gamers. They had hazmat suits and stealth suits and regeneration, so it was almost impossible to hurt them much with counters or lock them down. I got one really good roll with a counter, but they figured out that wasn't going to be the norm so it didn't set them back much. They were so offended by my acolyte ability that they never killed any acolytes so I couldn't ever use that ability.

By the way, can FAITH cleanse a corruption token placed on a city action space? We were assuming you could when they finally (graciously) killed a nun for me near the end...

I will try other missions. Also, I'll see if I can up my game card-wise. If push comes to shove though, i think it's an easy fix, which is just handicap scenarios by making it so sin wins if they get X kills, and vary X until the number of wins on either side start to look even.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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Wrath and Greed were victorious in our two plays of that scenario; albeit close victories.
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Erik
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Massachusetts
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locusshifter wrote:
Wrath and Greed were victorious in our two plays of that scenario; albeit close victories.


Good to know! I'll give them a try.
 
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R Damm
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We have played Havens Last Stand 4 times now. Twice with Sloth hobos, nuns) and Twice with Lust (corrupt doctors).

The first game, which was of course our learning game, we managed to crush Sloth with 4 players. The next game,we lost horribly. A combination of bad rolls and some crafty card use from the sin player. It was an epic defeat.

The next two games player were against Lust and paired with Corrupt doctors, the sin player managed to take us to the edge of defeat but we narrowly escaped and won both games. The last one was so close it came down to one result that could have splattered us.

I think the game is balanced well enough so far. If I have to give an edge to either side it is the sin side because with the right maneuvering, you can gut a team and get that apocalypse track rolling fast. I can see where after you really get settled in with a sin you can annihilate.
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Vernon Piper
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West Park
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I have obliterated three of George Michael's favorite team with Pride twice and Wrath once. Granted both Pride wins were against newer to the game players, but have played games similar to this before and Wrath was just a stomping.

When we won this scenario, when I played as the heroes we barely won and only got the victory with the very last hero throwing himself to the Avatar with an attack of desperation and heroic sacrifice.
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Erik
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Booooooooooooooooo (G. Michael joke).

It occurs to me that Sin is a bit more complicated than Faith, and that both losses involved someone playing their first games.

Next time i play will be with an experienced sinner.
 
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Tyler DeLisle
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Dallas
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Wolvercote wrote:
I've only played the game solo so far and out of 6 games, This scenario is the ONLY one where the Faith team won, and handily!
My initial impression thus far has been one of an uneven playing field overall. The game is undoubtedly fun but I'm wondering what the general consensus will be after more reviews and session reports trickle in.
The dreaded "houserule solution syndrome" may rear its ugly head.


Hm, I don't know if I'd judge a game based off of solo plays, when it's not designed for solo play. It's supposed to be several heads against one. Lang said that the scenario's were heavily play-tested by experienced groups to the point where the game was as close to a 50/50 win percentage for each team as possible, with a very slight slant towards the Sin player.

Not that I expect it to be infallible, sounds like this scenario might have slipped through the cracks from the testimony's here.

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Kent
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From the comments here, sounds like this is just due to inexperienced players.
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Dustin Schwartz
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Jackson
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My first game was Haven's Last Stand, with all 3 of us being new players. The Pride player rolled over us. I'm eager to try again now that we all have more experience.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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icarusmustburn wrote:
From the comments here, sounds like this is just due to inexperienced players.


I do feel like I've had an edge in our games. I've played a number of 1 vs Many games in the past and I'm positive experience counts.
 
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Brian Augustine
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Ive played this scenario twice. I won as Pride and won as the FAITH player. I rolled very well as Pride. IMO, thats the difference. Its a dice game after all.
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Nigel McNaughton
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The rulebook says to play that one first doesn't it? The guy I was learning it with thought that maybe it was a slightly easier scenario to learn the game with. It was hard to say since it was both our first games.
 
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Jason Rupp
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Only played twice, both as pride. Both times i let up on the heroes around mission 2 because i was destroying them so much.
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Magic Pink
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I steamrolled the first scenario as the SIN player. It's not unbalanced at all.

I will say it's a TERRIBLE first scenario to play tho as it will almost inevitably lead to the turtle strategy for the SIN player and, since it;s the intro scenario, the FAITH players probably won't know to make sure that doesn't happen.
 
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Patrick Reynolds
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I've played this scenario four times now, three with the same Sins player and once with me playing the Sins. Different Sin/Acolyte combo each time.

Win loss record is 2/2 for both sides.

All four games came down to no reserve heroes left, big suicide rush against the Avatar to determine the game.

I'd say, based on my (admittedly limited) experience, this scenario is remarkably well-balanced. No game resulted in a blowout victory for either side; they could have gone either way.
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Jamie L
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Magic Pink wrote:
I will say it's a TERRIBLE first scenario to play tho as it will almost inevitably lead to the turtle strategy for the SIN player and, since it;s the intro scenario, the FAITH players probably won't know to make sure that doesn't happen.


I'll be playing my first game next week. If Haven's Last Stand isn't a great scenario to start with, does anyone have recommendations for better?
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James Potter
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ChapeauDuCanard wrote:
Magic Pink wrote:
I will say it's a TERRIBLE first scenario to play tho as it will almost inevitably lead to the turtle strategy for the SIN player and, since it;s the intro scenario, the FAITH players probably won't know to make sure that doesn't happen.


I'll be playing my first game next week. If Haven's Last Stand isn't a great scenario to start with, does anyone have recommendations for better?


It is the best scenario because it only has 3 objectives and is straightforward.
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I really think this scenario is the easiest out of them all. I played it once and lost to sin but it was close. I played a corruption game and got stomped into a mud hole! Those dark past cards are NASTY. you get 7 corruption very easy and BOOM dead or BOOM new super villain on the field.
 
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