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Sushi Go Party!» Forums » Rules

Subject: Turn Summary / Timing Issues rss

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Jean Laurant
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After playing the game several times and dealing with the fairly ambiguous rules, we've come up with the following turn structure;

1. Each player picks a card from their hand and place it face-down in front of them. Now their choices are locked.
2. Each player who has chopsticks and/or spoons simultaneously calls out "chopsticks!" or "spoons!" (or say nothing).
3. Each player who picked a Special Order reveals it and simultaneously chooses which card to copy.
4. Each other player reveals their card.
5. Bonus actions take place in the order (according to the numbers in the lower-right corner of the cards)
6. Each player passes their remaining hand face-down to the player on their left.

About the 2nd step
If it were a digital game, you could simply choose a "chopsticks", a "spoon" or a "blank" tile (or icon) during the 1st step and reveal them together.
That might be a bit fiddly with physical components though.
Maybe it's easier and more precise to make a hand sign (for example; rock = do nothing, paper = use a spoon card, scissors = use a chopsticks card) than shouting.

About the 3rd step
The rules read that you choose which card to copy during the 1st step, but that would be problematic.
In a game, I could just avoid picking a miso soup card by seeing my opponent putting a card face-down on a miso soup card in his tableau (you might say I shouldn't have seen what opponents were doing during the 1st step, but that's uncomfortable and not practical with our normal sized table).
If it were a digital game, you could just decide which card to copy during the 1st step without anyone knowing it.
We might need screens to hide our tableaux if we try to do that with physical components.

We love this game, but unfortunately we tend to avoid playing with chopsticks, spoon and special order (at least we don't like to play with two of them at the same time).

Thanks for reading.
Any comments are welcome.
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Timothy Smith
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Pennsylvania
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Hmmm... that's not what I would do. The Special Order just says "point," and I think this is so that you don't choose what to copy before seeing everyone else's selections. Here would be my order based on the rules.

1. People place their cards face down at different times. Whoever puts down the Special Order Card face down must point to the card he/she intends to copy. It is not terribly relevant if others see as long as this player abides by an honor system in which he/she copies the intended card. If he/she wishes to copy a different card, he/she must pick the Special Order card back up into the hand and put it down again, pointing to the newly intended card this time.

2. Players all flip over their cards. As the rulebook says, it is as players are flipping over that any players who wish to use chopsticks or a spoon say "chopsticks!" or "spoon!". They must do this before registering what everyone has flipped over. It is basically as they are turning their own card over. Once the cards are flipped over, Special Order is attached to the previously designated card.

3. Bonus actions in the designated order.

4. Hands are passed to the left.
 
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B C Z
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Reston
Virginia
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Time for the metagame.

Miso Soup and Special Order are both in the deck.

I play a card face down and "point" it at a previously played and scored Miso Soup in my Tableau.

Is it...

a Miso Soup?
a Special Order?
one of the other cards in the deck?


Just because I've placed a card to 'point' to something doesn't mean it's a Special Order. Special Order is the only card in the deck requiring it 'point' to something in my Tableau - but I can do the same with all of the other cards as a bluff.
 
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Kuro Kokon
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byronczimmer wrote:
Time for the metagame.

Miso Soup and Special Order are both in the deck.

I play a card face down and "point" it at a previously played and scored Miso Soup in my Tableau.

Is it...

a Miso Soup?
a Special Order?
one of the other cards in the deck?


Just because I've placed a card to 'point' to something doesn't mean it's a Special Order. Special Order is the only card in the deck requiring it 'point' to something in my Tableau - but I can do the same with all of the other cards as a bluff.

I don't think that bluffing is a feature of the game.
Special order cards are simply wild cards and the "pointing" rule is nothing more than a poor execution that would be eliminated in a digital version.
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Jean Laurant
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windkirby wrote:
Hmmm... that's not what I would do. The Special Order just says "point," and I think this is so that you don't choose what to copy before seeing everyone else's selections. Here would be my order based on the rules.

Pointing a special order card is the same as putting it on a card.
If you don't explicitly show your opponents which card it will copy, you might as well decide which one to copy in your mind and just rely on a honor rule.
If you do things ambiguouly, there could be some uncomfortable moments.

Anyway, I really don't like any of those wonky methods.

windkirby wrote:
Players all flip over their cards. As the rulebook says, it is as players are flipping over that any players who wish to use chopsticks or a spoon say "chopsticks!" or "spoon!". They must do this before registering what everyone has flipped over. It is basically as they are turning their own card over.

That's basically the same as the way we play.
The difference is that we make sure players decide whether to use chopsticks / spoon or not before players revealing the cards (and accidentally see them). It's not like changing the rules (mechanics).
 
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Timothy Smith
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Pennsylvania
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Now I'm confused. Are you saying that the rules say to just put the Special Order on top of the card-to-be-duplicated or that you're supposed to physically point? I'm reading it like physical pointing but the wording is a bit unclear.

For me, pointing makes sense. I don't see any ambiguity in it as long as you do it so that others have an opportunity to see. I suppose putting it on top of whatever you intend to copy works also. It would reveal point blank what you're doing ahead of time, but that seems preferable to having them decide after everything is flipped. I wouldn't have the Special Order players choose simultaneously what to copy, that sounds rather complicated as players could want to base their decisions on what the other person chooses (like if Miso Soup is involved). I suppose you could count to three and have all Special Orders say what they're copying at the same time, or just play at the same time without looking.

I agree with you about chopsticks and spoons, there's no real difference there except better clarity.
 
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Jean Laurant
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windkirby wrote:
Now I'm confused. Are you saying that the rules say to just put the Special Order on top of the card-to-be-duplicated or that you're supposed to physically point? I'm reading it like physical pointing but the wording is a bit unclear.

The rules say to "point the top of the card (= the special order card you picked) at the card you wish to copy".
So you need to do it explicitly, which means it's the same as putting it on the card you wish to copy (otherwise, you might as well choose which one to copy in your mind and just say it after revealing).

windkirby wrote:
For me, pointing makes sense. I don't see any ambiguity in it as long as you do it so that others have an opportunity to see. I suppose putting it on top of whatever you intend to copy works also. It would reveal point blank what you're doing ahead of time, but that seems preferable to having them decide after everything is flipped. I wouldn't have the Special Order players choose simultaneously what to copy, that sounds rather complicated as players could want to base their decisions on what the other person chooses (like if Miso Soup is involved). I suppose you could count to three and have all Special Orders say what they're copying at the same time, or just play at the same time without looking.


The problem of pointing or putting a special order on a card you want it to copy is the timing to do that.
If you do it before other players choose which card to pick, they would see it and base their decisions on it.
If you wait until other players finish picking, it's like you're telling that you picked a special order. (And what if multiple players picked a special order and are waiting?)

So, we just put special order cards face-down just like other cards (not pointing nor putting on other cards), then everyone who picked a special order card simultaneously reveal them before other players reveal their cards.
Then they choose which card to copy by simultaneously putting the special order card on a card it will copy (without looking at each other).
Shouting the name of the card or pointing your finger at it would work too.

It's still problematic though. Because you choose a card to copy after checking if anyone else picked a special order (which I think is definitely not how the card is intended to work).
But it's still better than doing things ambiguously and "kind of playing" the game (like playing Pandemic with hidden hands and no one knows what's cheating and what's not).

I really hope the designer would tell us how the special order is supposed to work.

EDIT:
I think this method works better than what I wrote above;
Before anyone revealing their cards, everyone (including players who didn't pick a special order) simultaneously point their finger at the card they wishes to copy. Then everyone reveals their card.
If there are players who picked a special order, it copies the card at which the player pointed their finger.
This way, you can choose which card to copy without checking if anyone else picked a special order or not.
It's still wonky compared to games played without special order though.
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Timothy Smith
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Well, that seems rather wonky to me too lol... I don't think it's necessary to force all players to point if they didn't even play one. Let me try giving this another shot...

I think players are supposed to be able to see your pointing and base decisions off of it. I see it as a sort of nerf for the power of the Special Order. Even if you wait until after everyone else, other players will have the chance to change their decisions after you point because cards aren't flipped until everyone has chosen. If multiple players are waiting with a Special Order (which they shouldn't, since others will get the chance to choose again anyway), common decency dictates that you stop taking so long to make a choice. If multiple people are stalling, they must choose at the exact same time on an agreed upon count of three. In the case of a "stand-off" where two players keep cycling back and forth based on each other's visible decisions, I would just say that whoever pointed at any time is locked into whatever their first Special Order play was. If there is no conflict, then someone who pointed can change his or her mind. But if it sets off a decision paradox, then anyone involved in that paradox is locked into the first Special Order choice they made if they made one. That sounds complicated, but to summarize it is broken down into these three principles:

a) Any player can re-choose after a Special Order move has been made evident.
b) A player who has previously made a Special Order move can also re-choose after any other move has been made.
c) If multiple players are stuck in a loop in which they wish to endlessly re-choose based on each other's evident decisions, all players involved in that loop who made a Special Order move already are locked into the first Special Order move they made.

(And probably d, that players cannot bluff via pointing. As in, only point if you actually are using a Special Order card.)

After typing all this out, I'm sure you will probably prefer your own methods haha. If it really came down to the nitty-gritty though, this is what I would do to settle disputes about the pointing. That or what you outlined in your first post seem to me to be the best ways to resolve what is rather confusing in the rule book. I think what happened is they didn't realize that someone's pointing could influence other players' decisions, which could set off an infinite chain of decisions.
 
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Jean Laurant
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windkirby wrote:
After typing all this out, I'm sure you will probably prefer your own methods haha. If it really came down to the nitty-gritty though, this is what I would do to settle disputes about the pointing. That or what you outlined in your first post seem to me to be the best ways to resolve what is rather confusing in the rule book. I think what happened is they didn't realize that someone's pointing could influence other players' decisions, which could set off an infinite chain of decisions.

Yeah, but I think we would just play without special order cards most of the time (fortunately, the game offers enough variety even without it).
I want to play light games without much fiddliness and I don't want to play games like this ambiguously (I mean, if we were supposed to "kind of play" the game, what's the point of all the rules?)
I wonder how the card survived the playtesting.
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Timothy Smith
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I think that just no one got stressed out about the finer points of the timing too much. With my friends and I, we didn't even know about the pointing and just chose immediately after revealing the cards and no one really cared.
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Phil Boat
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I think the idea is to just align the card with the card you are duplicating. You can do it loosely to not draw attention to it. So you have all your cards laid out, say 6 inches in front of you in a horizontal row (some are stacks): when you put your special order card face down, just either turn the top to point at the card you are duplicating, or put it directly between you and the card--however, you want to do it so it is demonstrably pointing at what you want to duplicate, just don't make a big scene about it. Nobody will be watching to see if you are lining up your cards just so, so it won't tip people off.

This makes the most sense to me and causes the least issues. If someone wants to guess what you are doing by your behavior, then let them. Maybe just count that as a smart play and try not telegraphing next time if it will be critical information.
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Jean Laurant
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windkirby wrote:
I think that just no one got stressed out about the finer points of the timing too much. With my friends and I, we didn't even know about the pointing and just chose immediately after revealing the cards and no one really cared.

We had some uncomfortable / unsatisfying moments when playing Special Order with Miso Soup or a majority card like Maki Rolls.
I'd like to enjoy tactical decision making with no ambiguity in games like this and if I want to have some silly fun "kind of playing" a game to a certain extent, I'd play "activity games" like Say Anything or Concept, or dexterity games.
DunnoItAll wrote:
I think the idea is to just align the card with the card you are duplicating. You can do it loosely to not draw attention to it. So you have all your cards laid out, say 6 inches in front of you in a horizontal row (some are stacks): when you put your special order card face down, just either turn the top to point at the card you are duplicating, or put it directly between you and the card--however, you want to do it so it is demonstrably pointing at what you want to duplicate, just don't make a big scene about it. Nobody will be watching to see if you are lining up your cards just so, so it won't tip people off.

This makes the most sense to me and causes the least issues. If someone wants to guess what you are doing by your behavior, then let them. Maybe just count that as a smart play and try not telegraphing next time if it will be critical information.

We don't like to have that kind of sneakiness in games like this.
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Timothy Smith
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No, I agree, I didn't mean that you were wrong in having an issue. The way it's set up in the rules isn't good for exact play.
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Jean Laurant
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Oh, sorry for my misunderstanding.
 
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