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Subject: Leaving your kids alone - interesting read rss

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Wendell
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Link: http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/08/22/490847797/why-do...

An interesting look at how Americans judge people for leaving children unattended. Moral judgments seem to cause the perception of risk to rise dramatically (not the reverse, which is what researchers expected). Women are judged more harshly than men for leaving a child unattended. Americans MUCH more opposed to leaving kids in what they perceive as "unsafe" situations despite significant drops in all kinds of crime and risk indicators since the 1970s. And for a soupcon of how attitudes differ, Norwegians are happy to leave the kids in the stroller outside for a few minutes while they have a cup of coffee with friends. Edit: oh and liability concerns exacerbate this paranoia.
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Andre
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In todays age, I suspect it has to do more with the PERCEIVED dangers to kids, as opposed to actual dangers that they encounter, statistically. It is actually a national tragedy, in my opinion, kids in general are growing up with a lack of socialization skills that we learned from interactive play (person-to-person) while growing up. Today, the interaction is generated and assisted by technology, without the need to have kids in the same space.
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Paranoia will destroy ya.
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It is insane how the culture of parenting has changed. In fact, it's insane how the culture of America has changed -- Christ, we're just a bunch of terrified wimps fearful of everything.
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Chris
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Maybe some of the reason crime and risk is down is because we don't leave kids home alone as much. Kind of the chicken and the egg.
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rcbevco wrote:
Paranoia will destroy ya.


galad2003 wrote:
Maybe some of the reason crime and risk is down is because we don't leave kids home alone as much. Kind of the chicken and the egg.


And here ladies and gentlemen is the perfect encapsulation of liberal vs conservative.

Great article, BTW- I'm always fascinated by studies that show how profoundly irrational we humans really are.
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Scott Russell
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We specifically got cell phones for the kids before heading to GenCon, I think, the year our kids were 9, 12 and 16. This was specifically for the purpose that they could roam the convention center, but be able to call for help, if needed. IIRC, we didn't allow them to return to the hotel (usually attached or just across street) alone until 13 or 14.

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galad2003 wrote:
Maybe some of the reason crime and risk is down is because we don't leave kids home alone as much. Kind of the chicken and the egg.


Not sure the reduction in the legal ability of 10 year old kids to ride their bike alone to the park a mile away (or for 16 year old kids to get to soccer practice 30 minutes before the coach) has had a big impact on declining crime.
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James R
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Interesting article, thank you.

I can definitely relate to the conflicting thoughts; a) "I can objectively see there is essentially no risk/danger" vs b) "I would feel terrible and be judged horribly if anything did happen, so I shouldn't risk it".

Looking back at my actions I can also see that perhaps the fear of judgement rather than the fear of the risk itself that was driving me as I was more likely to follow option a) when it was just me and him, and option b) when we were in public.

It is an odd feeling to ponder your own irrationality.

James
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verandi wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Paranoia will destroy ya.


galad2003 wrote:
Maybe some of the reason crime and risk is down is because we don't leave kids home alone as much. Kind of the chicken and the egg.


And here ladies and gentlemen is the perfect encapsulation of liberal vs conservative.

Great article, BTW- I'm always fascinated by studies that show how profoundly irrational we humans really are.


Hogwash. All your post shows is how easily duped into making false assertions you are when you see something that confirms your innate sense of "I'm better than them". The two posts do show two tiny bits of information from two different people that give zero insight into anything wrt liberal vs conservative.

I read the article yesterday. It's long, not very informative, full of assumptions and doesn't speak to anything but a microscopic slice of parents. It's pure anecdote. I do think some parents are too protective but it's not like some sort of destructive plague sweeping America and we are now doomed to a sexless, clueless, mundane future as we spew out millions upon millions of pasty white fearful children. The incidents cited are rare and while they are ridiculous to the extreme and while I'm on board with condemning any cops, judges, etc who actually prosecute women for dashing into a dry cleaner while their 9 year old plays Pokemon, it's not happening at some alarming rate.

Most of this sort of NPR shite is geared to the hip, urban, college educated student loan debtor who is planning to run the cost/benefit ratio of having a child through their spreadsheet just as soon as they get done posting on Twitter, FaceBook and the rest of the social media sites how much they love Hillary because she has proven she is strong, strong like bull (take that Putin!) by opening a pickle jar on national TV.

Some parents are overprotective and we now have some districts that feel it's their job to prosecute parents for not meeting the standard of the guy with the cell phone and the outrage. Overall though kids roam and kids play and I see them unattended by adults every day, scores of them on bikes, walking, skateboarding, playing in the ditch or park and nary a hovering parents skulking in the background making sure they aren't dragged into a van to see a puppy. I have a 13 year old who is 5'9" and 160 pounds and by 15 will probably be 6' and 180 pounds, like the author of the article's son, I have zero concerns that he will be kidnapped or somehow abused when he's out with the dog or walking to the store a half mile away.

Maybe this is an urban thing? Nah, I know people who live in NYC, SF and a few other cities who have kids that walk to their schools a few blocks away. So maybe it's not really a thing? The few instances of idiocy by meddlers and morons in the court system don't portray America as a whole.
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DWTripp wrote:

Hogwash. All your post shows is how easily duped into making false assertions you are when you see something that confirms your innate sense of "I'm better than them".


I must've missed the part where I took sides?

DWTripp wrote:
Most of this sort of NPR shite is geared to the hip, urban, college educated student loan debtor who is planning to run the cost/benefit ratio of having a child through their spreadsheet just as soon as they get done posting on Twitter, FaceBook and the rest of the social media sites how much they love Hillary because she has proven she is strong, strong like bull (take that Putin!) by opening a pickle jar on national TV.


You were saying something about being easily duped into making false assertions, confirming your innate sense of "I'm better than them"?

DWTripp wrote:
The few instances of idiocy by meddlers and morons in the court system don't portray America as a whole.


Ah, of course- the usual source of your vitriol: a perceived slight against America. Welcome back to RSP.
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Damian
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DWTripp wrote:
I read the article yesterday. It's long, not very informative, full of assumptions and doesn't speak to anything but a microscopic slice of parents. It's pure anecdote.


It's original research posted in a peer reviewed journal. That us literally the exact opposite of anecdote. Anecdote does not mean "something I disagree with".
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verandi wrote:


Ah, of course- the usual source of your vitriol: a perceived slight against America. Welcome back to RSP.


Not at all. It's not even a slight. Like I said, I read the article and understood the "serious scientific study" done and even agree that anecdotally some of the incidents cited confirm what some people "feel". And I didn't say you took a side, just that you are snarky about there being sides and your post implies you think your side is superior which is impossible because my side clearly is the superior one.

Studies like this are commonplace and are sloppy at best because they attempt to explain something that rarely needs explaining. People are different, whether parenting or voting. The study says there is some sort of shift afoot wrt helicopter parenting and social (and now legal) shaming and punishment. It correctly points out women are viewed less favorably than men for similar parenting choices.

So what? Not a single thing i read is new except the whole prosecution thing. The rest is exactly what humans have been like for thousands of years, meddling shitbags trying to insert their morally superior choices into the lives of those they view as morally inferior. Especially when it comes to kids. Fer Christ's sake! Don't you have kids? And a mother? OrmMother-in-law? This isn't new. The only new thing here is cell phones and fines. And honestly, that's not surprising because parents have been paying fines and damages for what their kids do for like forever.

When I read articles like this I want, desire, hope to be informed and read new information with insight. Not the same tired old "the world is going to shit because *the new generation sucks*" crap.
 
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wifwendell wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
Maybe some of the reason crime and risk is down is because we don't leave kids home alone as much. Kind of the chicken and the egg.


Not sure the reduction in the legal ability of 10 year old kids to ride their bike alone to the park a mile away (or for 16 year old kids to get to soccer practice 30 minutes before the coach) has had a big impact on declining crime.


Sure it does. If it's harder to kidnap a child then less children will be kidnapped. If less kids stay home by themselves, less kids will burn up in house fires from using the stove by themselves. The question is, is it statistically significant?

That's the entire argument liberals use for gun control. If there are less guns, then there will be less gun deaths. But suddenly that is not true for this. Please be consistent at least.

In reality, both for gun control and this, is that it is much more complicated and bears more study. I think the decrease in leaving our children alone is a net improvement for society. Sure some people over parent but the good still out weighs the bad.

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Chris
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verandi wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Paranoia will destroy ya.


galad2003 wrote:
Maybe some of the reason crime and risk is down is because we don't leave kids home alone as much. Kind of the chicken and the egg.


And here ladies and gentlemen is the perfect encapsulation of liberal vs conservative.

Great article, BTW- I'm always fascinated by studies that show how profoundly irrational we humans really are.


I said this in another thread, i am offering my opinion like everyone else. I probably provide more links to back up my claims than anyone else in RSP but I can't be bothered to do that all the time. I don't RSP for a living.
 
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damiangerous wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
I read the article yesterday. It's long, not very informative, full of assumptions and doesn't speak to anything but a microscopic slice of parents. It's pure anecdote.


It's original research posted in a peer reviewed journal. That us literally the exact opposite of anecdote. Anecdote does not mean "something I disagree with".


Because it is posted in a peer-reviewed journal doesn't necessarily mean it isn't anecdotal (although, in this case, it isn't).

But, really, the journal Collabra?

And the method:

Quote:

In each of six experiments, we invited participants on Amazon Mechanical Turk to read brief vignettes in which a child spends a brief period of time unsupervised. The children’s ages, locations and duration of time unsupervised in each vignette were kept constant across participants (see Table 1)



Also, the peer-review was LAZY (you can see it on the link you provided). Sent out to reviewers, one of the reviewers (only 2, which is probably too few) had some substantial comments. Paper wasn't sent back to the reviewers to see if it answered their questions. Also, it really was only one Review because Reviewer 1 was a joke.

The problem with published research is that this is the kind of thing that passes off as peer-review for an accepted paper.




Those things make me question anything this study has to say
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J.D. Hall
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galad2003 wrote:
[ I think the decrease in leaving our children alone is a net improvement for society. Sure some people over parent but the good still out weighs the bad.


And I think it turns children into people that are unsure in unfamiliar situations, lack the confidence to be alone at any time of the day, and are terrified of people they don't know. In short, they're still tied to their mommy's apron strings.

Sadly, my generation -- one of the most free-to-wander generations in US history -- are the parents of these little butterball wimps stuck next to mommy's legs. Too much dope, I guess.
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Oliver Dienz
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galad2003 wrote:
Maybe some of the reason crime and risk is down is because we don't leave kids home alone as much. Kind of the chicken and the egg.


Crime is down across the board; not only crimes committed against kids. Is that because we also do not allow adults to roam around freely anymore?
 
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odie73 wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
Maybe some of the reason crime and risk is down is because we don't leave kids home alone as much. Kind of the chicken and the egg.


Crime is down across the board; not only crimes committed against kids. Is that because we also do not allow adults to roam around freely anymore?


I understand words like "some" and "maybe" are hard for you to understand and everything has to be absolutes. Nuance is lost on people like you.

So, Yes all crime is a function of being alone by yourself. if everyone went around with a partner at all times we would eliminate crime.
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remorseless1 wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
[ I think the decrease in leaving our children alone is a net improvement for society. Sure some people over parent but the good still out weighs the bad.


And I think it turns children into people that are unsure in unfamiliar situations, lack the confidence to be alone at any time of the day, and are terrified of people they don't know. In short, they're still tied to their mommy's apron strings.

Sadly, my generation -- one of the most free-to-wander generations in US history -- are the parents of these little butterball wimps stuck next to mommy's legs. Too much dope, I guess.


Leaving your children home by themselves and teaching them self confidence and self sufficiency are two different things.

Not leaving your small toddler in the car by themselves is good. Not leaving your 6 year old home by themselves after school is good.

The issue isn't not leaving children home by themselves, it is not spoiling your children. People don't make their teenagers get jobs anymore, pay for their own car/car insurance. They don't make their kids do chores, they give them allowances for doing nothing and still buy them anything they want. Parents don't teach them to wash their own clothes. All of this shit can be done and not leave your child home by themselves until they are old enough.

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remorseless1 wrote:
It is insane how the culture of parenting has changed. In fact, it's insane how the culture of America has changed


https://youtu.be/u0YMgcFjE9E?t=5m36s

https://youtu.be/BFOffsXCId4?t=13m32s
 
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There are people afraid to leave their kids alone, and then there are people afraid of CPS coming and taking their kids because they left their kids alone.

The anecdotes are enough to scare anyone, because in all the anecdotes there is no reasonable person above the CPS agent who tells them they screwed up and to give the kids back. Kids are ripped away for months. Years. And maybe not returned ever. All because a parent decided to show some trust in their child's ability to live in this world without a supervisor.

And while you and I and a whole ton of people with common sense understand that it's total nonsense and it's going to hurt our world in the future to disallow trust to be shown in children, that threat is still there and I don't want to be the one it happens to next.

Our family has a 'negative behavior ringleader' in it and he does some stuff that we all frown on but that often there was no way to keep it from happening apart from eyes on him every second of the day. You send a kid to his room upstairs, and you figure he's contained, but maybe he's just gone out on the roof. You sleep and wake up to find the cops at your door because your child snuck outside with his little sister and they were playing in the street, and she happened to be naked because she's just learned that she can in fact take her clothes off if she wants. Which led to them checking to make sure the kids all had beds and that we had food in the house...? None of which had anything to do with the kids being outside... breaking the rules...

There's pressure on parents to stop kids from breaking the rules, which is ridiculous... it's like children aren't really people to society until they're 18. You realize they do have their own agency, right? That if I had total control over them they wouldn't do these things, or fight, or any number of other things I would stop?

They do them and they get punished and then they don't do them again, usually.

Anyway, the point is, the threat of someone coming and legally taking your kids away is way more potent than the bullshit threat of some stranger coming and taking the kids away. And if you have a custody dispute, you should probably keep a better eye on your kid, because that's when kidnappings happen.
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There is a culture shift, but I think this is more interesting for its showing that morality dictates perception of risk. If you do something morally wrong, it is riskier by estimation, even if it is not, or if it is the same thing that happened unintentionally. Time to re-examine my own feelings on the risk of some behaviors.
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SpaceGhost wrote:


Those things make me question anything this study has to say


Yep. Even a non-scientist non-peer review expert can read an article and easily pluck out the underlying message or tone. Being peer-reviewed is meaningless in this sort of thing (to me anyway) because it's social/psychological and very easy to just assume things that may or may not be true. Still, I wholeheartedly agree -- as previously stated -- that the involvement of legal authorities that deeply into parenting that is clearly not only not dangerous, but also not the business of the passer-by or meddling neighbors is a troubling development.

Still, the moral judgement against mothers that are more harsh than when fathers effectively do the same thing is not exactly a discovery. Unless, of course, the person discovering it never read any books. or interacted with any people. or had a family to observe. That has nothing to do with umbrella parenting or Norway somehow being the land of better parents. If you simply open your eyes and look at the diversity of cultures, races, religions, backgrounds, nationalities, regional preferences, etc. here in America versus Norway (where parents are probably arrested and fined for failing to provide ample portions of lutefisk for their children) then it's pretty easy to see that the vast majority of people raising kids in America (or even Canada!) are doing a fairly decent job.

As for J's troublemaker, that's the price you pay for having kids. Some are more difficult than others. I recommend moving to an isolated farm with no neighbors and no access to wells, guns, matches or chainsaws. Tough it out and he/she will probably be fine. If not they'll get older and leave. Same difference.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
SpaceGhost wrote:


Those things make me question anything this study has to say


Yep. Even a non-scientist non-peer review expert can read an article and easily pluck out the underlying message or tone. Being peer-reviewed is meaningless in this sort of thing (to me anyway) because it's social/psychological and very easy to just assume things that may or may not be true. Still, I wholeheartedly agree -- as previously stated -- that the involvement of legal authorities that deeply into parenting that is clearly not only not dangerous, but also not the business of the passer-by or meddling neighbors is a troubling development.

Still, the moral judgement against mothers that are more harsh than when fathers effectively do the same thing is not exactly a discovery. Unless, of course, the person discovering it never read any books. or interacted with any people. or had a family to observe. That has nothing to do with umbrella parenting or Norway somehow being the land of better parents. If you simply open your eyes and look at the diversity of cultures, races, religions, backgrounds, nationalities, regional preferences, etc. here in America versus Norway (where parents are probably arrested and fined for failing to provide ample portions of lutefisk for their children) then it's pretty easy to see that the vast majority of people raising kids in America (or even Canada!) are doing a fairly decent job.

As for J's troublemaker, that's the price you pay for having kids. Some are more difficult than others. I recommend moving to an isolated farm with no neighbors and no access to wells, guns, matches or chainsaws. Tough it out and he/she will probably be fine. If not they'll get older and leave. Same difference.


Worth every penny.

He was also the easiest to potty train, so I mean, that makes up for a lot of it.
 
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