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Ashes: Rise of the Phoenixborn» Forums » Rules

Subject: Spike armor / Nightshade swallow rss

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Ryxius Ryxius
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Hello all,

If I put Spike armor on Nightshade swallow, are the damage of the spike armor are considered like death strike ? Or only the damage of the nightshade ?

The example is not good I think, but I don't know how to explain...

When we apply a spell to a unit, can we consider that the unit have the ability written on his card, or we must consider the unit and spell separately ?
 
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Ben Rubinstein

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Ooof, tough question.

I'd probably assume that the two are combined together as one BECAUSE Spike Armor specifically states that "this unit hast he following ability," so it's as if the ability goes onto the new unit's card. So if you exhausted the unit, Spike Armor would be exhausted (oh, inexhaustible, but if it weren't, I'd think they exhaust together).

Also, the text on Spike Armor says "when 'this unit' is damaged...," not "when the unit this is affected by is damaged," which makes me think they're counted as one entity.

BUT that's just my reading.
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Joshua Davis
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It would not trigger the nightshade's ability, as it specifically says nightshade needs to be attacking or countering.
 
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Ryxius Ryxius
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CloudBuilder wrote:
It would not trigger the nightshade's ability, as it specifically says nightshade needs to be attacking or countering.


Sorry but I don't understand, if my opponent attack me or I attack with my nightshade (which I have put the spike armor), why it would not trigger the nightshade's ability ?
 
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Skaak
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Ryxius wrote:
Sorry but I don't understand, if my opponent attack me or I attack with my nightshade (which I have put the spike armor), why it would not trigger the nightshade's ability ?


If Nightshade Swallow is ready you have two options:

1. Counter the attacking creature. The countering damage triggers Deathstrike and will kill them regardless of Spiked Armor.

2. Do not counter the attacking creature. Spiked Armor triggers, but because Deathstrike specifies the Swallow must be "attacking or countering", Deathstrike doesn't trigger.

If Nightshade Swallow is exhausted, it cannot use Deathstrike at all (because it's text box will be blanked by the exhaustion token), so even though Spiked Armor will trigger (it's inexhaustible), it will never auto-kill the attacker.
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Joshua Davis
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Ryxius wrote:
CloudBuilder wrote:
It would not trigger the nightshade's ability, as it specifically says nightshade needs to be attacking or countering.


Sorry but I don't understand, if my opponent attack me or I attack with my nightshade (which I have put the spike armor), why it would not trigger the nightshade's ability ?


No worries! It's one of the weirdest interactions in Ashes. Nightshade swallow (I'll abbreviate ns from here on out) says "when this unit (ns) deals one or more damage to a unit while attacking or countering (aka the ns is attacking or countering), destroy the unit the received damage (the one ns hit with an attack or counter)."

So essentially nightshade swallow needs to attack or counter.

Spiked armor on ns has the ns deal damage when the ns is damaged through attacking or countering by another unit. However, spiked armor is not an attack. If ns is doing damage through spiked armor it is not attacking or countering. You can have a ns with spiked armor attack/counter in addition, but that would make spiked armor overkill.

I hope that helps.
 
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Julien Grenier
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There is a case where the spiked armor would actually be helpful. If a unit with "Battle Advantage" attacks a Nightshade Swallow (with a Spiked Armor).

The damage of the Spiked Armor is dealt at the same time of the damage from the unit with Battle Advantage which would trigger Deathstrike and kill the attacking unit.

Without the Spiked Armor, the Swallow would die before being able to deal damage and Deathstrike won't trigger.
 
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Joshua Davis
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ThunderingGiraffe wrote:
There is a case where the spiked armor would actually be helpful. If a unit with "Battle Advantage" attacks a Nightshade Swallow (with a Spiked Armor).

The damage of the Spiked Armor is dealt at the same time of the damage from the unit with Battle Advantage which would trigger Deathstrike and kill the attacking unit.

Without the Spiked Armor, the Swallow would die before being able to deal damage and Deathstrike won't trigger.


No spiked armor would not be trigger the nightshade's ability. The nightshade's ability only triggers when the nightshade is attacking or countering. Spiked armor is neither.

It would only be useful if it keeps the nightshade alive who could then use its ability, or if you just wanted to do the two damage to the unit with battle advantage.
 
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Joshua Davis
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This came up in the Facebook page. There is one exception to what I said but it's really situational (this is from the lead play tester who said this). If a group of attackers attack a nightshade swallow with spiked armor, and the nightshade counters then the nightshade's ability triggers and kills all of the attackers. If the nightshade does not counter, then you deal damage as normal.

The reason, the nightshade has to be attacking or countering for its ability to trigger.

Sorry if this is what you were originally asking.
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Ryxius Ryxius
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Thanks a lot
 
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Nathan Stiles
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Skaak wrote:
Ryxius wrote:
Sorry but I don't understand, if my opponent attack me or I attack with my nightshade (which I have put the spike armor), why it would not trigger the nightshade's ability ?


If Nightshade Swallow is ready you have two options:

1. Counter the attacking creature. The countering damage triggers Deathstrike and will kill them regardless of Spiked Armor.


This isn't always true. If the Nightshade Swallow is being attacked by two or more creatures, it has 1 damage to allocate on a counter. It's ability only destroys creatures it damages. The Spiked Armor would trigger, and give it more damage to allocate. It would then destroy all creatures that it does at least one point of damage to. Granted, this would only happen if the person attacks the unit with multiple creatures.
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Ben Rubinstein

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SaintHax wrote:
Skaak wrote:
Ryxius wrote:
Sorry but I don't understand, if my opponent attack me or I attack with my nightshade (which I have put the spike armor), why it would not trigger the nightshade's ability ?


If Nightshade Swallow is ready you have two options:

1. Counter the attacking creature. The countering damage triggers Deathstrike and will kill them regardless of Spiked Armor.


This isn't always true. If the Nightshade Swallow is being attacked by two or more creatures, it has 1 damage to allocate on a counter. It's ability only destroys creatures it damages. The Spiked Armor would trigger, and give it more damage to allocate. It would then destroy all creatures that it does at least one point of damage to. Granted, this would only happen if the person attacks the unit with multiple creatures.


I think this is what I was getting at. Although I can't think of any reason why anyone would ever attack a NS with spiked armor with more than 1 creature. That's just... really dumb. But in that case, yes, I think NS would kill all attackers by dealing only 1 damage to each of them.
 
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Gene Moore
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CloudBuilder wrote:
ThunderingGiraffe wrote:
There is a case where the spiked armor would actually be helpful. If a unit with "Battle Advantage" attacks a Nightshade Swallow (with a Spiked Armor).

The damage of the Spiked Armor is dealt at the same time of the damage from the unit with Battle Advantage which would trigger Deathstrike and kill the attacking unit.

Without the Spiked Armor, the Swallow would die before being able to deal damage and Deathstrike won't trigger.


No spiked armor would not be trigger the nightshade's ability. The nightshade's ability only triggers when the nightshade is attacking or countering. Spiked armor is neither.

It would only be useful if it keeps the nightshade alive who could then use its ability, or if you just wanted to do the two damage to the unit with battle advantage.

I don't understand your reasoning.

If a Nightshade Swallow is attacked by a Blood Archer (who has Battle Advantage), the Swallow would be killed (regardless of whether it chose to counter), and the Archer would take no damage, because of Battle Advantage.

If a Nightshade Swallow with Spiked Armor (and one wound, for this example) is attacked by a Blood Archer, and chooses to counter, the Archer deals its damage first, but this triggers the Armor, dealing 2 damage back to the Archer, which also triggers the Swallow's ability and kills the Archer. the Swallow still dies, but so does the Archer.

The Blood Archer is attacking. This satisfies the requirement on the Spiked Skin ability.
The Nightshade Swallow is countering. This satisfies the requirement on the Deathstrike ability.

What am I missing?
 
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Joshua Davis
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Spiked armor is not a counter. It's automatic damage. A counter is someone attacks you, you exhaust to hit back. With battle advantage you only get the chance to counter if you attack. Nightshade swallow only does its ability if it attacks or counters.
 
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Gene Moore
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CloudBuilder wrote:
Spiked armor is not a counter. It's automatic damage. A counter is someone attacks you, you exhaust to hit back.

I didn't say that Spiked Armor is a counter. I understand what countering means.

CloudBuilder wrote:
With battle advantage you only get the chance to counter if you attack.

You can't counter and attack at the same time. That's not a thing.

CloudBuilder wrote:
Nightshade swallow only does its ability if it attacks or counters.

And as I said in the example, the Nightshade Swallow is countering the Blood Archer's attack.
 
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Joshua Davis
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Yes that is correct. I'm sorry if I implied you didn't understand it. I just figured it would be better to be more exhaustive in my explanation.

But, since nightshade only triggers from the nightshade attacking or countering, the nightshade's ability only triggers if the nightshade lives through the battle advantage attack and if able to counter afterwards.
 
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Gene Moore
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CloudBuilder wrote:
But, since nightshade only triggers from the nightshade attacking or countering, the nightshade's ability only triggers if the nightshade lives through the battle advantage attack and if able to counter afterwards.

That's not how I understand Battle Advantage to work. But, I added it to the Facebook thread to get the PHG guys to see it.
 
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Ryxius Ryxius
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If I attack with nightshade swallow a phoenixborn and a unit block my nightshade.

Can I trigger the deathstrike ?

I'm not sure because the target in this case is a phoenixborn not a unit, but however a unit counter me...

Thanks
 
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Joshua Davis
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In that case yes. The blocking unit would die because nightshade swallow is blocking it.
 
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Ryxius Ryxius
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CloudBuilder wrote:
In that case yes. The blocking unit would die because nightshade swallow is blocking it.


Thanks for the answer, but it's not the nightshade who is blocking in my exemple.

The nightshade attack a phoenix born and a unit block this attack.
And he decide to counter the nightshade.

In this case, can we trigger the deathtrike of the nightshade ?
Nightshade is not attacking a unit but a phoenix born, however a unit counter the nightshade but it's not the target.

Thanks
 
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Joshua Davis
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Ryxius wrote:
CloudBuilder wrote:
In that case yes. The blocking unit would die because nightshade swallow is blocking it.


Thanks for the answer, but it's not the nightshade who is blocking in my exemple.

The nightshade attack a phoenix born and a unit block this attack.
And he decide to counter the nightshade.

In this case, can we trigger the deathtrike of the nightshade ?
Nightshade is not attacking a unit but a phoenix born, however a unit counter the nightshade but it's not the target.

Thanks


I'm sorry that was a typo on my part. I had just woke up. As the nightshade is attacking.

Once the other unit blocks,even though it was an attack the phoenixborn action, it is attacking the unit now that the player has decided to block with that unit.
 
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Ryxius Ryxius
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Thanks for your confirmation.

I had a doubt because my opponent tell me :

When we attack a unit if a phoenixborn block it is become the target of the attack.

When we attack a phoenixborn with a unit in the rules it's not noted that this unit become the target of the attack.

And with the deathstrike it's a problem because on this card it's noted when we attacked a unit. And in my example we attack a phoenixborn.

Thanks for your help :-)
 
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Guille RD
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CloudBuilder wrote:
Yes that is correct. I'm sorry if I implied you didn't understand it. I just figured it would be better to be more exhaustive in my explanation.

But, since nightshade only triggers from the nightshade attacking or countering, the nightshade's ability only triggers if the nightshade lives through the battle advantage attack and if able to counter afterwards.


Mmmmmm Why deathstrike ability only triggers when attacking or countering? Has been the card officially FAQed? because for the text of the card..



When unit deals 1 or more damage to a unit that is attacking or countering

As I understand it, the NS is not required to attack or counter to fire the effect of the deathstrike, and per AS text the unit gain the ability to damage back when it is damaged... So I do not understand the rest of the rationale...
 
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Simon St.
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gpetiso wrote:

When unit deals 1 or more damage to a unit that is attacking or countering


But the text on the card reads:
When this unit (the ns) deals 1 or more damage to a unit it (the ns) is attacking or countering, ...
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Guille RD
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Ok, now I can see It. cool
Thanks!
 
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