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Subject: Pernicketily yours rss

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Nick de Bretagne
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Brittany
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Hi 'verybody,

I'm totally into this project. And it is a firm euphemism. But, as an old pedantic former historian having a foot in England and the other one in France (yep, I am very supple), I almost fell off my chair when I see your game's banner (designed by the excellent Rachel Billingsley). And here come my great moments of "who-cares-about-your-sh*t!?" :

- The British Union Flag of 1606 is as perfect as the Blue Capetian coat-of-arms (with its three gold fleurs-de-lis) is wrong. During the selected era, the French monarchy banner is a white flag sown with fleurs-de-lis.

- Most of French historians and some (of the greatest) British historians consider the conflict between Capetians and Plantagenets (from 1159 to 1259) as the "First Hundred Years War." The "famous" Hundred Years War (from 1337 to 1453) is therefore the "Second Hundred Years War." Your selected period (1697-1789) could be, de facto, the "Third Hundred Years War" - even if the outlook period is universally known as the "Age of Enlightenment" (whatever the starting date, btw).

I am convinced that it is a first draft, but, eh... you know... living in Brittany and being trapped between "les deux ennemis héréditaires", I cannot help but comment on it. Just an humble advice. Thank you to take it as it is.

P.S.: don't stone, please... I leave. whistle
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"L'état, c'est moi."
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Wikipedia, source of all credible[citation needed] information says:

The "Second Hundred Years' War" (c. 1689 - c. 1815) is a periodization or historical era term used by some historians[1][2][3] to describe the series of military conflicts between Great Britain and France that occurred from about 1689 (or some say 1714) to 1815. The Second Hundred Years' War is named after the Hundred Years War, when the England-France rivalry began in the 14th century. The term appears to have been coined by J. R. Seeley in his influential work The Expansion of England: Two Courses of Lectures (1883).[4]

However, like the debate about the wargame or not-ness of Twilight Struggle, I am wearing my cloak of indifference about whether this particular game is the second, third, or n-th Hundred Years' War. I only care if it's a good game or not.
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Nick de Bretagne
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Bonjour Leroy,

If Wikipedia says something, it is probably true, isn't it? laugh

But this is interesting. Very interesting. Selley wrote for the Brittons (and not for his fellow historians)in a period of heightened tensions between the European powers (imperialism, colonies, dominions, etc.). His aim was to frankly explain the past of the British empire to legitimate its contemporaneous policies and to "confront" British and Russian empires (which was called by Selley the "organic nation"). For this purpose, he litterally built a partitioned history focused on England (as did the German and French historians with their methodic schools at the same period of the century). Tenets have changed yet and history has been deconstructed in order to suggest a holistic approach of the historical material (beyond events, tight periods, strict frontiers...).

Nowadays (and to refocus), in Western Europe, the pattern is more to consider the HYW as the second one in history. But, you know, it is a trend; it could change.

As far as I am concerned, the 1689-1815 period is seen in France like an historic dichotomy: in one hand, this is "la période des Lumières" and, in the other hand, this is "le début des conflits (sinon des batailles) mondiales". From 1159 to 1259, and from 1337 to 1453, it was mainly between France and England (even if the countries did not exist de jure) and some satellites states. The 18th century is more a "big game" (already!) between all "nations" of Europe; the conflicts spreading all around the globe.

And to conclude, I do agree when you say the most important is the game. But I would like to pick up where you left off: this kind of tiny little insignificant details are important to me. Let's call that "immersion" or "quibbling", whatever you want. It is like seeing on the Twilight Struggle Box the American flag with 15 stars and 15 strips, subtitled "the Bold War".
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Morten K
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Whether it's the second or third I do not find that important but getting the flags right is. I hope they will.
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Alan H.
France
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In fact, I find it very cheap to call it either the second or the third Hundred Years War. It has nothing to do with the Hundred Years War. In fact, it looks to me like if a bunch of people had problems grabbing this complicated setting, so they absolutely needed to relate this period to something that is simplier, hence that they can understand (the Hundred Years War).

Leave these second or third Hundred Years War alone. Go get another cool name (and that makes sense) for the period :).

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"L'état, c'est moi."
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I think Alan has the right idea here.
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Greg Schmittgens
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"Another Hundred Years War"
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GMT Games
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Nick-

We appreciate you noticing and taking the time to point out that the French flag currently on one of our Imperial Struggle banners is incorrect for the time period. We are happy to fix this by replacing the blue flag with the more correct white flag sown with fleurs-de-lis.

There are a few different versions of this white flag with fleurs-de-lis (at least according to the Google search I just did), so we were wondering if you would be willing to provide us a sample .jpg or something with the specific flag you are talking about so that we can get this next version of the banner right.

Thanks!
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Nick de Bretagne
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GMT Games-

If you allow me to suggest something clear and concise about the French monarchy's flag, you can consider the Royal Standard (a.k.a. "Pavillon du Roi", i.e. Flag of the King) as the good one. A simplier version does exist, without the "accompagné" Capetian coat-of-arms ; this "pared down" white flag sown with fleurs-de-lis is considered in Europe as the flag of the French monarchy (a.k.a. "Pavillon de la Famille royale", i.e. Flag of the Royal Family). Both have been in use from 1643 to 1790.

As the French and the British flags were almost never used on the battlefields (regiments and fleets had their own flags), perhaps may I additionally suggest two other common symbols which were more known - more in use and more convenient in the considered era - to "embody" the two Crowns. Indeed, the coats-of-arms were the real international symbols: the "Armoiries de France et de Navarre" and the "Coat-of-Arms of Great Britain" are easily recognizable and a good way to avoid the redundancy of the flags' presence in your future designs.


Le Pavillon du Roi


Le Pavillon de la Famille royale


Armoiries de France et de Navarre (from Henri IV to Louis XVI)


Coat-of-Arms of Great Britain (from George I to George III)

Remember I am not trying to impose a pedantic intellectual totalitarianism. Imperial Struggle is your project. I only hope this is going to help you.

Thank you for the happiness and the epic moments your games bring. laugh

Amicalement.
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Alex
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Candiac
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Vive la France! laugh
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Nick de Bretagne
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You're welcome.
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Ananda Gupta
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This type of feedback is more than welcome! However - I intentionally did not correct GMT's use of the blue French flag even though, as you 100% correctly point out, the white flag with yellow fleurs-de-lis is more appropriate as a representation of Bourbon power.

The reason I didn't ask for the Bourbon flag is that the blue standard *was* flown over French armies of the time, as a common regimental element and this device was also prominent for the Orleanists. Given the size of the illustration I also thought it best to have a simpler, easier-to-read image.

I have not yet decided whether the French pieces in the game should be blue (mirroring the most common uniform pattern) or white (representing the Bourbons), although my playtest markers are blue just because that makes them easier to notice against my white playtest boards.

As for "The Second Hundred Years' War", I went back and forth on that one as well, but decided it rolled off the tongue and provided more recognizability than "The Global Rivalry between Britain and France, 1697-1789". That this could be considered either the second or the third one is a testament to why these two antagonists need a game.

Edit: And please forgive my lateness in responding to this thread! I had only subscribed to the first one, and hadn't scrolled down in a bit.
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Carlo Marinozzi
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I've absolutely no authority to speak but I'll nevertheless strongly supports the colour white for the french, it's so ancient regime that purrs
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Nick de Bretagne
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Bonjour Ananda,

I am really, really happy to read your opinion.

I can't fully agree, nor plainly disagree (an historian's common flaw). The "blue standard" is typically French (Sweden would have a word of two about this, but they come later on the battlefields ;-) ), but not necessarily, and I quote, "over French armies of the time". If you keep talking of the considered era, France is white (and blue undercoated) and the fleur-de-lis its symbol. Something white on a battlefield ? Damn! The French army! The hell with their cannons!

Talking specifically about the French regiments, I would like to humbly inform you that they used to use "la bannière de Saint-Michel" (i.e. the banner of Saint-Michel) has a formal "model" of their own flags during the XVIIth and XVIIIth centuries. The Saint-Michel white cross has been used in almost all the French provincial regiments' flags (as you can see below) until the French Revolution.
And, by the way, the Orléanistes have nothing to do with the game and its time: they are not put on center stage in policy before the end of the XIXth century.

But let us put aside history and facts. Blue is color of France, whatever the era (as red is England) ; if you do have the luxury to choose your own colors for the game, set the French armies in "white and undercoated blue" and the British armies in "red and undercoated white". Honestly, not sure it is so important for the players.

To conclude, and to rephrase your opinion about the "whatever" Hundred Years war, the choice of "another Hundred Years war" is quite good. Or not the worst. Or you can consider - of course, the choice is yours - to use a more informal statement which resumes the love/hate, repulsion/fascination between France and England for the last nine centuries : "France & England: the intimate enemies".

Sincerely yours,



Bannière de Saint-Michel


Régiment du Roy


Régiment de la Reine


Régiment des Gardes françaises


Régiment d'Auvergne


Régiment de Champagne


Régiment de la Sarre


Régiment de Normandie


Régiment de Picardie


Régiment de Piémont


Régiment des Gardes de Navarre
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Nick de Bretagne
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Shame on me, I did forget my own region:


Régiment de Bretagne

And a totally vintage photography (hu hu hu hu):

"Messieurs les Anglais, tirez les premiers" (Bataille de Fontenoy, 1745)
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Ananda Gupta
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Love the photos! I'd seen the Gardes Francaises flag in a couple of places and perhaps that's what impelled me to let the blue field flag go through.

As to the Orleanists - it was just a reference to Philippe, duc d'Orleans, who was regent of France after the War of the Spanish Succession. You are right that calling them "Orleanist" is ahistorical. It was just my attempt to give Philippe a call-out.
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Nick de Bretagne
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Salut Ananda,

This is a little bit off topic, but I am an inquiring mind and I would like to know where you did see the Régiment des Gardes françaises' banner!?

I have seen it once, in the Hôtel national des Invalides (see below), in Paris... And nowhere else. Not even in a movie. I'm very intrigued.

Thank you.


Les Invalides
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Ananda Gupta
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I have seen it there as well, and in a painting (the painting can be seen on both French and English Wikipedia: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9giment_des_Gardes_fran%...)

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Jörn Mang
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I wholeheartedly support the idea of playing as France and being represented by lots of white flags. After all, this opens up the game to various French army jokes such as: How many men do you need to defend Paris? ... -I don't know, nobody has tried it, yet.

My beloved neighbour country would be even more fun to play if I can keep cracking up jokes about the moon being a French territory nowadays because of the solar radiation turning Armstrong's American flag into a traditional French one. Will there be a version, where the yellow lily is replaced by a white lily? I think white lilies are plus jolies, mes amis :-)

Let me also take this chance (since you read this post, Ananda) to express that upon reading the announcement of this game, I was blown away. The designers of my favourite board game will be designing a game on one of the most interesting periods of time! I'm very much looking forward to your game, guys!
 
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Alan H.
France
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Sir_Fortesque wrote:
After all, this opens up the game to various French army jokes such as: How many men do you need to defend Paris? ... -I don't know, nobody has tried it, yet.


You mean 2002 American Republican ignoramuses' jokes on the French armies ?

As a German, I would have thought you would have known better. And I also thought this post was a civilized one.
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Sam Carroll
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There was an interesting bit in C.S. Forester's novel The Captain from Connecticut where, when the American frigate is about to engage a British frigate in the War of 1812, they spot a sloop flying apparently a flag of truce and nothing else. They're so used to the tricolour that they don't recognize the Bourbon flag - which opens the American captain to significant embarrassment!
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Nick de Bretagne
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ASGupta wrote:
I have seen it there as well, and in a painting (the painting can be seen on both French and English Wikipedia: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9giment_des_Gardes_fran%...)



Godamn pain! You are absolutely right, Ananda! I have seen this painting (exhibition of private collections in the Grand Palais) and did not even notice the banner. I wish I could see it again.

Did you notice the "Drapeau Colonel" (white cross on white field) on the right side. This one was used "in pair" of every regiment's flags on the battlefields of Europe (a good way to be sure the regiments are French for the artillerymen behind).
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Nick de Bretagne
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Amendment wrote:
Sir_Fortesque wrote:
After all, this opens up the game to various French army jokes such as: How many men do you need to defend Paris? ... -I don't know, nobody has tried it, yet.


You mean 2002 American Republican ignoramuses' jokes on the French armies ?

As a German, I would have thought you would have known better. And I also thought this post was a civilized one.


Salutations Alan,

I don't even know why you lose time to answer such a message, highlighting absence of education and lack of social awareness. I have very good friends in Germany who told me they are always ashamed of people like this one (I use to answer we have the same morons in France). For their part, they use to quote a local genius who has fled this kind of witty sense of humour: " Es ist leichter, einen Atomkern zu spalten, als ein Vorurteil."

Au plaisir, l'ami.
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Sam Carroll
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Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
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Martin Gallo
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As long as we are being pedantic, I think it is spelled "Persnicketally".
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