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Sam I am
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Still using up a finite resource when renewable alternatives are available.
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J.D. Hall
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On the other hand...

It has been shown that overfilling waste water cisterns can lead to a slight increase in earthquakes. We found that out here in Oklahoma, and trust me, it was like pulling teeth out of an angry bear's mouth to kick the state into even looking into this, much less do anything about it. But now we're all regulated ... and there's still earthquakes.

The point about natural gas is one that needs to be more. Yes, it's not pure like oxygen, but it burns one hell of a lot cleaner than coal or even oil, and we've literally got tons of the stuff. It's a perfect filler between the old, dirty energy sources we had, and the Utopian future where unicorns will never sneeze due to airborne pollution.

Which isn't surprising to me. Back in the early 1990s, I started getting news releases from whatever government agency tracks earthquakes. Why? Because we were having earthquakes in my southern Oklahoma county -- which, to put it in context, does not have one working oil/gas well site within 40 miles. Now ours were in the 2.2 to 3.4 range, so you barely felt them, but they were happening. Eventually, that massive fault line that runs through Rush Limbaugh's hometown in Missouri is gonna shake like hell.
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Mike Stiles
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I totally get the 'it looks like a net positive compared to burning coal', but wasn't it one of the talking points that coal's totally fine?
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J
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Lol, being not as bad as coal does not equate to being "good for the environment"

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Christopher Dearlove
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SoRCon 8 27 Feb - 1 Mar 2015 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk Essex Games 27 Jul '15
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Of course even that report (whose political bias is plain on the front page without me having to check it's a right-wing think tank) doesn't say fracking is 20 times more effective than alternatives. It says it's reduced carbon emissions more because it's been done, and its alternatives haven't. Without appropriate figures to put that in perspective, it's meaningless.

Edit: Yes. It's really easy to call these things. People making serious fact-based and neutral studies don't put quotes from their political opponents on the front page of their reports that set out to contradict them. And indeed, it's a conservative think tank that among its already held positions was support for fracking. Colour me totally unsurprised.
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Drew1365 wrote:
"The natural gas boom, in particular, has led to the displacement of high-carbon coal with low-carbon natural gas producing fewer emissions."

Quote:
Hydraulic fracturing, a process more commonly referred to as fracking, is actually good for the environment, Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz said at a field hearing in Seattle last week, according to the Washington Examiner.

“The increased production of oil and natural gas in the United States has, obviously, been a major story in terms of our economy, and also our environment,” said Moniz, who previously served as the head of the Physics department at the Massachusetts Institute for Technology, earned a doctorate degree in physics from Stanford University.

“The natural gas boom, in particular, has led to the displacement of high-carbon coal with low-carbon natural gas producing fewer emissions,” Moniz reportedly said during the Seattle field hearing.

Since the Environmental Protection Agency’s advisory board published a study earlier this month debunking the widespread claim that fracking contaminates drinking water, environmentalists have attempted to double down — claiming that the study didn’t have enough scientific evidence in it to back up its findings. Moniz’s testimony at last week’s hearing was meant to dispel these criticisms and confirm to the public that fracking doesn’t just drastically reduce the cost of energy, it also helps the environment.

In the past five years, there have been at least 75 scientific studies that all reach the same conclusion: methane emissions are falling — despite a huge increase in the level of natural gas, The Daily Caller’s Andrew Follett reported.

A recent study found that fracking has reduced carbon emissions by 20 percent, whereas the costly and heavily subsidized development of solar and wind energy has only reduced these same emissions by roughly 1 percent.


Daily Caller - Telling Da Troof.

Oh, boy.
 
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The Seal of Approval
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Sometimes, releasing the pressure on a problem by finding an "easy temporary fix" can have fatal long-term consequences.
 
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Sam I am
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Natural gas it's unsustainable and it's another change over in our power delivery system that will also become out dated. will it work for now? yes. Is it better than coal? yes. Is it the best thing since sliced bread? no.
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Junior McSpiffy
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Nuclear.

Next question?
 
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Sam I am
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Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Natural gas it's unsustainable


And we were supposed to have reached "peak oil" a decade ago.

Quote:
and it's another change over in our power delivery system that will also become out dated.


By this reasoning we shouldn't bother to upgrade or build new nuclear power plants.

But we should.

Quote:
will it work for now? yes. Is it better than coal? yes. Is it the best thing since sliced bread? no.


Nobody said it was the best thing since sliced bread. What's being said is that it's better than coal. Those who reject it because it's not solar are making the perfect the enemy of the good.


If you buy a bag of cookies and later find out your wife hid some of them around the house. You can search and search it might take years to find them all but eventually they will be found and eaten.

I'm pro nuclear but it is possible at some future date to re-use the "spent" fuel, but yea it's not totally sustainable.

Fossil fuels have their uses but if we burn them up in cars the cost of ameritrash games will go up exponentially.
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Moshe Callen
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GameCrossing wrote:
Nuclear.

Next question?

Absolutely-- if the infrastructure etc is properly maintained but it demonstrably hasn't been.
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Donald
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This would appear to be the testimony in question

http://energy.gov/articles/secretary-monizs-testimony-senate...

If anyone can find the aforementioned quotes by Moniz, your eyes are better than mine.


The whole meeting for those with too much time on their hands;

http://www.energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/hearings-and-b...
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Moshe Callen
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Nuclear will become sustainable if and when we develop the technology to use fusion instead of fission. Fission has dangerous byproducts but fusion does not.
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Damian
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Hydraulic to me is the killer we are wasting an increasingly scarce resource, fresh ground water, to harvest an unsustainable one NG. Unless the NG companies are using ocean water which I doubt.
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jeremy cobert
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rcbevco wrote:
Still using up a finite resource when renewable alternatives are available.


Whats it like there in the future ? Back here in 2016, the alternatives are jack shit. We have nuclear but the moonbats seem to hate that as well.
 
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J.D. Hall
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I work in the oil and gas industry, and yet I am a huge proponent of renewable, clean energy. Unfortunately, it will take a great deal of time to build:
1. Fusion reactors that will be small enough to power individual automobiles or even buses. Hell, build fusion reactors period.
2. Batteries big enough to power trains and trucks, not to mention airliners and ships.
3. Solar panels/sails efficient enough to power much of anything besides an individual home.

I have great faith in wind power at the present. They're all over Oklahoma, Texas, hell probably all of the Great Plains. But that only goes to power lines, which leaves transportation in the lurch.

Natural gas isn't perfect. But it is....
remorseless1 wrote:
It's a perfect filler between the old, dirty energy sources we had, and the Utopian future where unicorns will never sneeze due to airborne pollution.
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Sam I am
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jeremycobert wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Still using up a finite resource when renewable alternatives are available.


Whats it like there in the future ? Back here in 2016, the alternatives are jack shit. We have nuclear but the moonbats seem to hate that as well.


Nuclear with massive oversight and sustainable sources for today. The moonbats can STFU or start pedaling bikes with generators attached to them. I never said I knew the "answer" just pointing out that choices have consequences in this case you're killing two birds to get one stone.

I would like to see a Manhattan Project style search for either fission or solar. If we wait for private business to solve it the answer will come too late IMHO.

This is why I kinda side with the AGWr's out there. I don't think the AGW treat isn't as serious as this one. Besides alternative energy would give us options in foreign policy that are impossible today.
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J.D. Hall
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Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
I would like to see a Manhattan Project style search for either fission or solar. If we wait for private business to solve it the answer will come too late IMHO.


Umm . . . actually, if you're going to get any movement on it at all, you're probably going to need to hand it over to private enterprise. Kind of like we're doing with our space program.

Given the fact the American Congress basically hasn't done jack shit for four years, I think we're going to have to rely on private enterprise.
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Sam I am
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Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
I would like to see a Manhattan Project style search for either fission or solar. If we wait for private business to solve it the answer will come too late IMHO.


Umm . . . actually, if you're going to get any movement on it at all, you're probably going to need to hand it over to private enterprise. Kind of like we're doing with our space program.


Only because the government is funding/subsidizing it. I don't care how it gets done, it just needs to get done. Most "free market will fix it" solutions are just band aids and this is a semi-utopian or distopian future kind of thing. We owe it to future generations not to wait until the last second. If we don't this will be the "Golden Age" of a long lost civilization. None of the futuristic happy talk is possible while this problem remains unsolved.
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Damian
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Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
I would like to see a Manhattan Project style search for either fission or solar. If we wait for private business to solve it the answer will come too late IMHO.


Umm . . . actually, if you're going to get any movement on it at all, you're probably going to need to hand it over to private enterprise. Kind of like we're doing with our space program.

We're not handing the space program over to private enterprise. We're handing space program support over. Kind of like how we have the Navy and the MSC crewed by civilian mariners (though not a perfect analogy since those ships are owned by the Navy). NASA is still doing the heavy lifting of pushing exploration.
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Drew1365 wrote:
Wind and solar will not meet the world's energy needs.
And hydro, and thermal, and tidal, and biogas and whatever else they come up with and most of all conservation...why not?
 
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