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Subject: How is it with 2? rss

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Robert Clevidence
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I'm really interested in picking this up, but want to know how well it plays with 2 players. I've seen one thread that said it was awful, but he'd messed up the rules and hasn't come back yet with revised opinions. The BGG rating appears to say it's okay with 2, good with 3, and best with 4 or 5. That seems at odds with the Dice Tower and Man Vs. Meeple reviews although neither address specific player counts except to say that they wouldn't do 5. Does anyone have any specific opinions on playing this 2 player?
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Thomas
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Clevider wrote:
I'm really interested in picking this up, but want to know how well it plays with 2 players. I've seen one thread that said it was awful, but he'd messed up the rules and hasn't come back yet with revised opinions. The BGG rating appears to say it's okay with 2, good with 3, and best with 4 or 5. That seems at odds with the Dice Tower and Man Vs. Meeple reviews although neither address specific player counts except to say that they wouldn't do 5. Does anyone have any specific opinions on playing this 2 player?


People love to same games are "awful" with two because they like them with more. It gets old. I'm sure this game plays great from what I hear.
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Joe Martineau
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I've played it 2, 3 and 4 player. I enjoyed all player counts about equally, and would have no objection to even a 5 player.

Because the end game triggers don't scale based on the number of players, playing with just two means each player will get more actions before the game ends. Both of us had quite a big stack of cards in play at the end of the game and many actions per turn/generation.

I don't have much else to say about specifically the two player game. It's a fantastic game and reducing the player count to two doesn't change it very much.
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Joe Martineau
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LunarSoundDesign wrote:
Clevider wrote:
I'm really interested in picking this up, but want to know how well it plays with 2 players. I've seen one thread that said it was awful, but he'd messed up the rules and hasn't come back yet with revised opinions. The BGG rating appears to say it's okay with 2, good with 3, and best with 4 or 5. That seems at odds with the Dice Tower and Man Vs. Meeple reviews although neither address specific player counts except to say that they wouldn't do 5. Does anyone have any specific opinions on playing this 2 player?


People love to same games are "awful" with two because they like them with more. It gets old. I'm sure this game plays great from what I hear.


Well, in the thread OP is referencing, that absolutely would have been an awful game. He made a dramatic rules error that would have ruined the experience regardless of player count.
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Thomas Leitner
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I actually tried 5 last night, not something I would normally do ( I generally find five an unattractive number for most Euros...there are exceptions, of course).

It worked very well, because as Joe noted above, end game triggers are independent of player count.

Unfortunately, I can't speak for the 2P game, but I have a very strong suspicion it works well.
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Rob White
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MDJD wrote:
I actually tried 5 last night, not something I would normally do ( I generally find five an unattractive number for most Euros...there are exceptions, of course).

It worked very well, because as Joe noted above, end game triggers are independent of player count.

Unfortunately, I can't speak for the 2P game, but I have a very strong suspicion it works well.


I've played a couple with two players and it's terrific. Also terrific with 3-5 players. Wonderful gsme. I'd strongly suggest drafting your cards each round. It makes for interesting decisions about whether to hold on to a good card for you or use your pick to keep a good card so your opponent doesn't get his grabby little hands on it
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Robert Clevidence
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Thanks for the opinions. It's a shame Tom and Jason's review didn't air until after Stronghold's pre-order ended. Ah well, I can easily shift my SeaFall money over to this game.
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Matt Smith
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The only real difference in 2-player vs. 3-5 player games is the red-bordered effects that target a single player. In a 2-player game, if you play a card that targets any player, your only valid target besides yourself is your opponent. If you have at least 3 players, each player has two possible targets for those "take that" effects.

Fortunately, these effects are on a small percentage of cards, so it's not a big part of the game.
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Bill Buchanan
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mvettemagred wrote:
The only real difference in 2-player vs. 3-5 player games is the red-bordered effects that target a single player. In a 2-player game, if you play a card that targets any player, your only valid target besides yourself is your opponent. If you have at least 3 players, each player has two possible targets for those "take that" effects.

Fortunately, these effects are on a small percentage of cards, so it's not a big part of the game.


I think this might be a good reason to always use the drafting rules when playing with 2-players? To make sure that those cards have the opportunity to get spread out to both players, and avoid draws where one player gets some, and the other player doesn't?
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Thomas
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WBuchanan wrote:
mvettemagred wrote:
The only real difference in 2-player vs. 3-5 player games is the red-bordered effects that target a single player. In a 2-player game, if you play a card that targets any player, your only valid target besides yourself is your opponent. If you have at least 3 players, each player has two possible targets for those "take that" effects.

Fortunately, these effects are on a small percentage of cards, so it's not a big part of the game.


I think this might be a good reason to always use the drafting rules when playing with 2-players? To make sure that those cards have the opportunity to get spread out to both players, and avoid draws where one player gets some, and the other player doesn't?


Or just remove them
 
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Bill Buchanan
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LunarSoundDesign wrote:
WBuchanan wrote:
mvettemagred wrote:
The only real difference in 2-player vs. 3-5 player games is the red-bordered effects that target a single player. In a 2-player game, if you play a card that targets any player, your only valid target besides yourself is your opponent. If you have at least 3 players, each player has two possible targets for those "take that" effects.

Fortunately, these effects are on a small percentage of cards, so it's not a big part of the game.


I think this might be a good reason to always use the drafting rules when playing with 2-players? To make sure that those cards have the opportunity to get spread out to both players, and avoid draws where one player gets some, and the other player doesn't?


Or just remove them


Remains to be seen, but I'd rather not. I'll be playing this game predominantly with 2-players. I think drafting will be fine.
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Thomas
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mvettemagred wrote:
The only real difference in 2-player vs. 3-5 player games is the red-bordered effects that target a single player. In a 2-player game, if you play a card that targets any player, your only valid target besides yourself is your opponent. If you have at least 3 players, each player has two possible targets for those "take that" effects.

Fortunately, these effects are on a small percentage of cards, so it's not a big part of the game.


How many are there? Seems with the advance cards there are tons of options so removing them shouldn't hurt the game.
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Joe Martineau
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Seems odd to pull those cards just because there is only one valid target.


In my experience, those cards generally have one (or maybe two) targets, anyway. Someone has a lot of plants? Okay, hit him with the plant card. Someone else has titanium production? Okay, he's the target for the titanium theft.
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Robert Clevidence
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LunarSoundDesign wrote:


How many are there? Seems with the advance cards there are tons of options so removing them shouldn't hurt the game.


I'm not much of a fan of drafting and my wife doesn't much like attacks in building-games. This is what we'll probably try first (for 2p, anyway).
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Thomas
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Clevider wrote:
LunarSoundDesign wrote:


How many are there? Seems with the advance cards there are tons of options so removing them shouldn't hurt the game.


I'm not much of a fan of drafting and my wife doesn't much like attacks in building-games. This is what we'll probably try first (for 2p, anyway).


We like drafting but not until we know the game better.
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Matt Smith
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Only production effects are mandatory. Red-bordered resource effects are optional, so you could agree with your playing partner to not trigger those effects. That only leaves a small percentage of cards that negatively affect any player's production. These cards are not very painful, and are usually expensive to play. They're more like pin pricks than bee stings. I would leave them in the deck.
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Matt Smith
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I finished a 2-player game last week where I played both players. I was curious to see how much "take that" was present in the game, as playing against myself I wasn't going to hold back or play nice. I'm happy to say it was almost non-existent, I think for two reasons:
1. Many of the big event cards that impact other players were drawn early to mid-game, when they were deemed too expensive to justify paying to keep. I really needed the money to play other cards that tied better into my strategies.
2. Once I had the income to play the bigger attack cards, I usually could score more points another way.

I ended up playing only two event cards that impacted another player's production/resources. In addition to the event cards, one "player" did get the Predators card into play, but it was near the end of the game and was only able to be used once, resulting in a 2-point swing.

FYI, I played the standard game with Corporation cards but no CE project cards and no drafting.
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Chuck Mitchell

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My first playthrough was last night with 2.

We enjoyed it. We tied 72 each and I won the tiebreak with ten MC more than my friend. Epic.
 
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