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Vast: The Crystal Caverns» Forums » Rules

Subject: "Attacks" rss

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Charlie Roselius
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The Thief's Unnatural Evasion has a 50% chance to block any attack. Goblins can ignore any one dragon attack with the Trap card. There are other references to attacks elsewhere. What is or isn't an attack? My assumptions are below.

Bow? Enchanted Bow? Knight moving on to your space? Bomb?
Yes/Yes/Yes/Yes

Goblins attacking the knight/dragon? Plundering a dragon crystal? Plundering a treasure?
Yes/No/No

Thief backstab? Thief pickpocket?
Yes/No

Dragon Claw? Dragon Scratch? Dragon Hiss? Any other dragon power?
Yes/Yes/Yes/No

Caves' Soporific Spores?
No

Anything I missed?
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Kyle
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Jozrael wrote:
What is or isn't an attack? My assumptions are below.

Bow? Enchanted Bow? Knight moving on to your space? Bomb?
Yes/Yes/Yes/Yes
The Bomb is not an attack, it simply allows an attack to be made. The others are correct.

Quote:
Goblins attacking the knight/dragon? Plundering a dragon crystal? Plundering a treasure?
Yes/No/No
Using the attack action against the Knight, Dragon, Thief, or a Crystal token is an attack. Ambushing (including via Hiding Spots) is an attack.

If you try to plunder a Dragon Gem by going after the Dragon directly it counts as an attack. If you're just picking it up off the floor, it is not.

Plundering treasures is not an attack.
Hex is not considered an attack.

Quote:
Dragon Claw? Dragon Scratch? Dragon Hiss? Any other dragon power?
Yes/Yes/Yes/No
Claw, Scratch, and Hiss - Yes
Flame Wall and Wrath - No (they can harm other players, but indirectly)

Quote:
Caves' Soporific Spores?
No
Spores are not an attack (and cannot be dodged by the Thief), but will increase the Goblin player's Rage value if targeted by it.

Quote:
Thief backstab? Thief pickpocket?
Yes/No
Backstab and Pickpocket are both attacks, they just produce different results.


Disregard - See my post below
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David Fenton
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Just out of curiosity, why are the Spores not an attack on the thief, while the Bow/Enchanted Bow are?

Both specifically target a player (as opposed to a tile, such as Flame Wall/Wraith) and both reduce the Goblin's population (without scattering it).

The Goblin rules are, "When any Goblin Tribe is attacked or shot by other players, your Rage increases".
If Rage increases when targeted by Spores, then logic says two things, A) Spores must be an "attack" on the Tribe...unless you're saying Spores are a "shot"...which seems unlikely, and B) the Cave must be considered an other player.

Thief rules say "The first time each turn that you are attacked by another player."
Following the above conclusions, I fail to see why Spores aren't considered an "attack" by an"other player" when targeting the Thief as well.

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Ponder Stibbons
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sidequests requiring the knight to "attack" are not fulfilled by any bow, but they're still considered attacks? also, yeah, what David said above about spores.
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Kyle
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I misspoke on some of the above, and discussed it in detail with Patrick.


We're going to clarify this better in the updated rules for the reprint. This shouldn't really change things with how the rules are already written, but feel free to consider this errata if necessary.

These are considered attacks:
-The Knight Encountering an opposing player (or crystal) in the same tile.
-The Goblins using the Attack (or Move+Attack) action. This includes when using the Hiding Spots secrets card.
-The Goblins attacking via an Ambush.
-The Dragon using Claw or Scratch.
-The Thief using Pickpocket or Backstab.


These are NOT considered attacks (non-inclusive list, but if it isn't in the list above, assume it goes here):
-The Knight using the standard Bow or the Enchanted Bow
-The Knight taking a treasure or a gem.
-Goblins using the Plunder action.
-Goblins using Hex (Secrets).
-Dragon using Hiss, Flame Wall*, or Wrath. (*Even if pushed into it by some other effect.)
-Any harm caused by a trapped Dragon Gem.
-Cave using Soporific Spores or Giant Bats


-----------------------------

More Details/Clarification:

This means that...

The Goblins can use Trap to protect against being attacked (Encountered) by the Knight, but it does not apply to Ambushes. They can discard Trap to ignore a hit from the Dragon's Claw, Scratch, or Hiss (because Trap refers to powers, not attacks) but it will not protect them from Wrath or Flame Wall. It will protect them from being Pickpocketed or Backstabbed by the Thief.

The Goblins' Rage is increased whenever they are attacked AND when harmed by certain other (non-attack) abilities - these are listed on their player board in the Rage section.

The Thief can use Unnatural Evasion when attacked (Encountered) by the Knight, when targeted with an Attack action from the Goblins, or when hit by the Dragon's Claw or Scratch. He cannot use it when targeted by the Knight's Enchanted Bow or the Cave's Spores, or when entering a space with a Flame Wall.


The Sidequests section in the rules states that the ones referring to "attacks" require the Knight to attack (encounter) another player during her own turn. Ambushes and using the Bow specifically do not count, unless the individual quest specifically says otherwise.


Edits/Additions - Marked above in Red.
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Dylan Thurston
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That makes way more sense, thanks.
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Noah Levine
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Woelf wrote:


These are considered attacks:
-The Dragon using Claw or Scratch.


Do the goblins still gain rage if the dragon misses with Claw? Do the goblins still gain rage if they use the trap to avoid being hit?
 
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Kyle
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ThePointedClick wrote:
Woelf wrote:


These are considered attacks:
-The Dragon using Claw or Scratch.


Do the goblins still gain rage if the dragon misses with Claw? Do the goblins still gain rage if they use the trap to avoid being hit?
No, if the attack misses or fails, they don't scatter and don't gain rage.
 
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David Fenton
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Woelf wrote:
The Goblins' Rage is increased whenever they are attacked AND when harmed by certain other (non-attack) abilities - these are listed on their player board in the Rage section.

You might want to change the player board text so that it doesn't say "include". That wording makes me think that Hiss or Bow are considered attacks (since they are "included" as part of "attacked").

A better wording would be ", when Attacked or affected by ...".

 
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David Werner
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Quote edited for relevance to my question:

Woelf wrote:

These are NOT considered attacks (non-inclusive list, but if it isn't in the list above, assume it goes here):
-The Knight using the standard Bow or the Enchanted Bow

More Details/Clarification:

This means that...

The Thief can use Unnatural Evasion when attacked (Encountered) by the Knight, when targeted with an Attack action from the Goblins, or when hit by the Dragon's Claw or Scratch. He cannot use it when targeted by the Knight's Enchanted Bow or the Cave's Spores, or when entering a space with a Flame Wall.

Edits/Additions - Marked above in Red.


Does this also mean that the Thief's stealth is not a factor when the Knight fires the Enchanted Bow at him? The rulebook only says that the Knight's perception must be greater than the Thief's for an attack (as an encounter). Furthermore, the Enchanted Bow section in the Treasures sidebar makes no mention of a Perception/Stealth requirement.
 
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Kyle
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WookieeLove wrote:
Does this also mean that the Thief's stealth is not a factor when the Knight fires the Enchanted Bow at him? The rulebook only says that the Knight's perception must be greater than the Thief's for an attack (as an encounter). Furthermore, the Enchanted Bow section in the Treasures sidebar makes no mention of a Perception/Stealth requirement.
The Knight's Perception must be higher than the Thief's Stealth - it's listed on the Enchanted Bow card.
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David Werner
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Woelf wrote:
The Knight's Perception must be higher than the Thief's Stealth - it's listed on the Enchanted Bow card.


DUH. Why, yes it does. Thank you.
 
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Steven Becker
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Does backstab cause the - x population + scatter considering it's an attack?
 
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Kyle
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Replect wrote:
Does backstab cause the - x population + scatter considering it's an attack?
Backstab only reduces population, so will not cause the Tribe to scatter unless it reduces the Tribe to 0.

Because it is an attack the Goblins' Rage still goes up.
 
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Peter Rabinowitz
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Goblins automatically scatter when they attack.

They don't automatically scatter when attacked.
 
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Paul Chang
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Woelf wrote:


These are NOT considered attacks (non-inclusive list, but if it isn't in the list above, assume it goes here):
-The Knight using the standard Bow or the Enchanted Bow
-The Knight taking a treasure or a gem.
-Goblins using the Plunder action.
-Goblins using Hex (Secrets).
-Dragon using Hiss, Flame Wall*, or Wrath. (*Even if pushed into it by some other effect.)
-Any harm caused by a trapped Dragon Gem.
-Cave using Soporific Spores or Giant Bats



So since flame wall is not considered an attack, if either the knight, goblin tribes or the thief is adjacent to the dragon, it can't place flame wall right onto that adjacent tile which any of the other players are on and cause harm, right?
 
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David Fenton
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humanpaul wrote:
So since flame wall is not considered an attack, if either the knight, goblin tribes or the thief is adjacent to the dragon, it can't place flame wall right onto that adjacent tile which any of the other players are on and cause harm, right?

I believe it can be placed there, but won't harm them (they are only harmed when entering the space, not just by being in it).

Note: you can place it, then knock them out of their tile and back into it (using Slap as a separate action) to hurt them, since they are now entering the space (however unwillingly).
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