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Subject: Keeping followers hidden rss

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Shabazz
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Might be a dumb question but haven't found this in the rules: do players keep the follower cubes in their hand hidden or are they out in the open so everyone knows at each instance which faction they are strongest in?
 
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Mark von Minden
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izajsek wrote:
Might be a dumb question but haven't found this in the rules: do players keep the follower cubes in their hand hidden or are they out in the open so everyone knows at each instance which faction they are strongest in?

Followers are kept open, as are cards previously played.
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Duncan Molloy
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mrkvm wrote:
izajsek wrote:
Might be a dumb question but haven't found this in the rules: do players keep the follower cubes in their hand hidden or are they out in the open so everyone knows at each instance which faction they are strongest in?

Followers are kept open, as are cards previously played.


The *most recently played card* is open information, as is the number of cards played, but not necessarily every card.
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J C Lawrence
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Cubes and cards are perfectly trackable; it seems rather silly to try and hide that.
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Christopher Corrigan
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Perhaps you are asking the question as you misunderstand that the crux of this game is patience, negotiation and cunning play - not subterfuge or misinformation. Certainly, if someone is inattentive others will have an intrinsic advantage but, that is a given in almost any human endeavor.
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Dave Eisen
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I see no mention of negotiation anywhere in the rules and in fact in the partnership game there is an explicit statement calling out that players are not allowed to discuss strategy or tactics during the game.
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Christopher Corrigan
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dkeisen wrote:
I see no mention of negotiation anywhere in the rules and in fact in the partnership game there is an explicit statement calling out that players are not allowed to discuss strategy or tactics during the game.

There is no rule against negotiating with ones opponents, within your own "team" in the four player variant - yes (but that is different game, a variant which I do not play, but I suppose it reflects the poor to no communication and the inability to coordinate between your factions in the period of the game - the dark ages - as does the fact that different parts of different peoples ally differently amount players factions) and again you are free to negotiate with your opponents even in that variant.
I find it odd that this is not in your purview particularly as this game is about influence, power and surrogates - it is perhaps really more like the game "Diplomacy" than perhaps you have grokked.
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J C Lawrence
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I suggest that if the rules do not explicitly permit negotiation then negotiation is not allowed by the rules.
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Jason Reid
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Krsnaji wrote:
Perhaps you are asking the question as you misunderstand that the crux of this game is patience, negotiation and cunning play


If you play the game as a negotiation game, then the crux of the game may include negotiation. Heck, any game one plays as a negotiation game probably includes negotiation at its crux. But this game certainly doesn't need it to function spectacularly well.

Those other things, though...patience and especially cunning play...yeah those I agree with.
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Christopher Corrigan
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clearclaw wrote:
I suggest that if the rules do not explicitly permit negotiation then negotiation is not allowed by the rules.
Do the rules "explicit" permit talking? Giving game threats, Can you state what you think will happen if another player does something ... if? no ? That would amount to being outside of the "explicit" rules- as negotiation?
Silly Silly too Silly.
Do game rules "explicitly permit" you to sit - At a table - at the same time. Only what is "explicitly" permitted is both a rather practically silly fallacy but the spirit of the whole idea also limits both creative thinking and interaction.
You you should try a good three player negotiations in this game. It is far more interesting.
 
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Christopher Corrigan
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jasonwocky wrote:
Krsnaji wrote:
Perhaps you are asking the question as you misunderstand that the crux of this game is patience, negotiation and cunning play


If you play the game as a negotiation game, then the crux of the game may include negotiation. Heck, any game one plays as a negotiation game probably includes negotiation at its crux. But this game certainly doesn't need it to function spectacularly well.

Those other things, though...patience and especially cunning play...yeah those I agree with.

I agree that it is a fine game even if you don't make and break deals. We have just found that negotiation adds some interesting facets to its play and does not detract at all.
 
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Brian S.
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Krsnaji wrote:
You you should try a good three player negotiations in this game. It is far more interesting.
Three players is not a good number for negotiating. The game has rules to minimize kingmaking, negotiation just amps up the kingmaking.
 
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J C Lawrence
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Krsnaji wrote:
..but the spirit of the whole idea also limits both creative thinking and interaction.


If you want to communicate to the other players then use your board moves as your only language for that communication. You'll find that doing so opens up new realms of creativity, interaction and subtlety.

Quote:
You you should try a good three player negotiations in this game. It is far more interesting.


I have. It wasn't, not even close.
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Christopher Corrigan
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clearclaw wrote:
Krsnaji wrote:
..but the spirit of the whole idea also limits both creative thinking and interaction.


If you want to communicate to the other players then use your board moves as your only language for that communication. You'll find that doing so opens up new realms of creativity, interaction and subtlety.

Quote:
You you should try a good three player negotiations in this game. It is far more interesting.


I have. It wasn't, not even close.

I'm sorry that your crew did not grok this but prefer an alternative norm. Whatever floats your boat. Also since you clearly do not play in my group's norms of play to you presume our limitation are the same as yours, n'est-ce pas?
 
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J C Lawrence
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I've no interest or care in norms, just the minimal definition which fits within the rules.
 
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Duncan Molloy
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I agree that negotiation is of limited value in the game, but I've certainly benefited in the three player game from pointing out another player's position of strength, and my own inability to do anything about it.
 
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J C Lawrence
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Play with better players.
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Brian S.
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Perhaps he is content playing with the people he likes? Gaming is a social activity.
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J C Lawrence
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Many games don't support sloppy/careless play and this is one such. Specifically, the game works to the degree that the players are attentive, thoughtful and aggressively use every bit of information they have.
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Duncan Molloy
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clearclaw wrote:
Play with better players.


Well, I commissioned the game, and in the last game I played I beat the designer, so I'm content with the group I've got.
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Chris
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Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars, where you will be forced to drift aimlessly farther into the vast, empty abyss of space until a lack of food, water and oxygen causes you to succumb to Death's cold embrace.
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Dunc wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
Play with better players.


Well, I commissioned the game, and in the last game I played I beat the designer, so I'm content with the group I've got.


 
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Christopher Corrigan
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clearclaw wrote:
Many games don't support sloppy/careless play and this is one such. Specifically, the game works to the degree that the players are attentive, thoughtful and aggressively use every bit of information they have.

Well you've shown your colors now, haven't you lad?
 
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