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ChToHe
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I guess the Legacy System is getting all the buzz from the general public

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/gaming/2016/08/rob_daviau...

and also this article quoted in Slate

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/25/pandemic-...

I think most, but not all hobby gamers will embrace the change, but I really wonder if casual gamers will ever buy into the Legacy System......
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Brian M
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Over on the music and app side, they struggle to force technology that limits resale and usability onto customers.

Here on the boardgame side, apparently lots of people embrace it and think its great. Because somehow having to buy a game twice to play it with two different groups is an amazing and spiffy thing.
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StormKnight wrote:
Over on the music and app side, they struggle to force technology that limits resale and usability onto customers.

Here on the boardgame side, apparently lots of people embrace it and think its great. Because somehow having to buy a game twice to play it with two different groups is an amazing and spiffy thing.

Call me when board game publishers are trying to force a Legacy model onto every single game they print.
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I understand the appeal of the Legacy System and the emotional strings it pulls. It is exciting to be part of an ongoing saga.

One of the greatest barrier for me to getting the game is assembling a consistent group. Without a consistent group, I am a bit reluctant to take the leap as the experience just won't be the same. This is already a challenge for hobby gamers let alone the casual gamer.

Still, I like Daviau's explanation that he is selling an experience rather than a game. For $50 a ticket, you get to be a part of larger story.

I just wish that for environmental/practical reasons, the game doesn't become obsolete as soon as it is done. I think there is no push for the company to make the game renewable, but I can clearly see how the game can be designed with modular boards or boards that can be marked but wiped clean. Designers can then sell smaller, add on story modules or expansions to extend the gaming experience rather than purchasing a brand new game altogether.
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Stephen Rochelle
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toucana wrote:
I just wish that for environmental/practical reasons, the game doesn't become obsolete as soon as it is done. I think there is no push for the company to make the game renewable, but I can clearly see how the game can be designed with modular boards or boards that can be marked but wiped clean. Designers can then sell smaller, add on story modules or expansions to extend the gaming experience rather than purchasing a brand new game altogether.
Lots of games (campaign systems) do this. Support those games! This is not an either-or proposition.
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Matt Brown
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I'm still waiting to see how well the game does because I don't think I have seen three people try to like a game but yet not as awkwardly as the Dice Tower's review in progression does.
 
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lomn wrote:
toucana wrote:
I just wish that for environmental/practical reasons, the game doesn't become obsolete as soon as it is done. I think there is no push for the company to make the game renewable, but I can clearly see how the game can be designed with modular boards or boards that can be marked but wiped clean. Designers can then sell smaller, add on story modules or expansions to extend the gaming experience rather than purchasing a brand new game altogether.
Lots of games (campaign systems) do this. Support those games! This is not an either-or proposition.


This pretty much how I look at legacy games. The only thing they do that can't be done in a non-destructive campaign style game is add the emotional rush the destruction gives.
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toucana wrote:
I guess the Legacy System is getting all the buzz from the general public

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/gaming/2016/08/rob_daviau...

and also this article quoted in Slate

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/25/pandemic-...

I think most, but not all hobby gamers will embrace the change, but I really wonder if casual gamers will ever buy into the Legacy System......


I strongly suspect not. They require an investment of time and logistical co-ordination that I would suspect most casual gamers would not be prepared to make*. However, there are an incredibly small number of legacy games, compared to the veritable panoply of non-legacy games, so casual gamers still have a vast array of other great games to play. I suppose I would've preferred the Slate article not to have such an idiotic headline - "This Man Will Change the Way You Play Board Games", indeed? I think not... - but given the paragraphs on non-legacy gaming, I don't think readers of the article will come away with the impression that legacy games are the only...er...game in town, right now.

As an aside, it occurs to me that Legacy games aren't going to be much use in boardgame cafes...


* Or some "hobby" gamers: I've no interest whatsoever in playing a "legacy" style game, partly because I like to regularly change my opponents, and partly because a campaign-style boardgame just doesn't interest me.
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Dave Lartigue
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Remember before Legacy games took off, when there were none, instead of like 3 or 4? Those were really the days. Now you can't swing a cat without hitting a Legacy game, if you have one of those handful of games within the swing radius. Everything is ruined.
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Check out Clockwork Wars. It's a pretty darn good dudes on a hex map Euro'ish steampunk game. Quick and fun.
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I thought both articles were solid. They were written by not-stupids and showed modern games in a positive light. From a gamer's perspective, I think they were good things for the hobby.

Of course, they say nice things about legacy gaming so they're bound to inspire haters...

StormKnight wrote:
Over on the music and app side, they struggle to force technology that limits resale and usability onto customers.

Here on the boardgame side, apparently lots of people embrace it and think its great. Because somehow having to buy a game twice to play it with two different groups is an amazing and spiffy thing.

My understanding (I've never played one) is that legacy games are, in part, about the experience. Lots of experiences are one-off things that you have to pay for again if you want to experience them again. Are you bummed that you only get to eat a fancy dinner once? That you only get to ride a roller coaster once. Oh, you could do it again, but that would cost more money. So? That's how those kind of experiences work. Keep in mind, the cost/benefit ratio of Pandemic Legacy is crazy. $50 for around 18 hours of fun for 4 people?!? That's less than $1 an hour! I call that pretty darn amazing and spiffy! And Pandemic Legacy IS fun. The ratings are through the roof. One of my gaming buddies was in a campaign and just loved it. The people have spoken!

Now I haven't played a legacy game because, for now, I don't think they're for me. Three basic reasons:
1 - I cringe a little at the idea of ripping up game elements. (That's not an absolute judgement on legacy games, it's just my own personal reaction.)
2 - I don't have a group that I could play with for that long. I got my wife but I kinda think this wouldn't be her thing.
3 - I am not a big fan of Pandemic.

However, I understand that my own tastes and reactions are not a judgement on a game. Power Grid and Castles of Burgundy bore the crap out of me. Doesn't make them bad games, just makes them not for me. I am continuously amazed that folks mistake their own prejudices for absolute judgements. You may not like a game, or the idea of a game. That doesn't make it a bad game idea.
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CARL SKUTSCH
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Check out Clockwork Wars. It's a pretty darn good dudes on a hex map Euro'ish steampunk game. Quick and fun.
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Legomancer wrote:
Remember before Legacy games took off, when there were none, instead of like 3 or 4? Those were really the days. Now you can't swing a cat without hitting a Legacy game, if you have one of those handful of games within the swing radius. Everything is ruined.

Thanks a lot buddy. I felt the need to test your theory and failed miserably. Now I have scratches up my right arm and one very peeved feline.
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skutsch wrote:
I am continuously amazed that folks mistake their own prejudices for absolute judgments. You may not like a game, or the idea of a game. That doesn't make it a bad game idea.


Welcome to the internet!
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skutsch wrote:
Keep in mind, the cost/benefit ratio of Pandemic Legacy is crazy. $50 for around 18 hours of fun for 4 people?!? That's less than $1 an hour!
The group I play this with split the cost of the game four ways, so it ended up costing me $12. We haven't finished yet, but we've only lost twice so far so, at worst, I'm paying $0.92 per play.

As an added benefit, I'm guaranteed 13 plays at this point, and there's not that many games I get to play that many times.
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skutsch wrote:
My understanding (I've never played one) is that legacy games are, in part, about the experience. Lots of experiences are one-off things that you have to pay for again if you want to experience them again. Are you bummed that you only get to eat a fancy dinner once? That you only get to ride a roller coaster once. Oh, you could do it again, but that would cost more money. So? That's how those kind of experiences work. Keep in mind, the cost/benefit ratio of Pandemic Legacy is crazy. $50 for around 18 hours of fun for 4 people?!? That's less than $1 an hour! I call that pretty darn amazing and spiffy! And Pandemic Legacy IS fun. The ratings are through the roof. One of my gaming buddies was in a campaign and just loved it. The people have spoken!


Before the big argument starts, let me quickly jump in on this:
While I agree with you for the most part, I have one issue with this comparison:

Pandemic: Legacy, or any legacy-style game, is a board game, isn't it?
Shouldn't it be compared to the (potential) cost/hour of other boardgames instead of roller coasters or a fancy meal?
Wouldn't that potential cost/hour be almost 0 for any game (especially as there's still some kind of resale value for most games)?

That's why I'm still on the fence about the concept of legacy style games. But as you pointed out, that doesn't mean that those games are bad.
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toucana wrote:
I just wish that for environmental/practical reasons, the game doesn't become obsolete as soon as it is done.

Which legacy games are like that though?

Once the campaign is over, the board is a little different, some cards may be gone or changed, the motivation to replay may have dropped, the resale value has gone down, but they are still playable games.
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ShaneOMac wrote:
skutsch wrote:
My understanding (I've never played one) is that legacy games are, in part, about the experience. Lots of experiences are one-off things that you have to pay for again if you want to experience them again. Are you bummed that you only get to eat a fancy dinner once? That you only get to ride a roller coaster once. Oh, you could do it again, but that would cost more money. So? That's how those kind of experiences work. Keep in mind, the cost/benefit ratio of Pandemic Legacy is crazy. $50 for around 18 hours of fun for 4 people?!? That's less than $1 an hour! I call that pretty darn amazing and spiffy! And Pandemic Legacy IS fun. The ratings are through the roof. One of my gaming buddies was in a campaign and just loved it. The people have spoken!


Before the big argument starts, let me quickly jump in on this:
While I agree with you for the most part, I have one issue with this comparison:

Pandemic: Legacy, or any legacy-style game, is a board game, isn't it?
Shouldn't it be compared to the (potential) cost/hour of other boardgames instead of roller coasters or a fancy meal?
Wouldn't that potential cost/hour be almost 0 for any game (especially as there's still some kind of resale value for most games)?

That's why I'm still on the fence about the concept of legacy style games. But as you pointed out, that doesn't mean that those games are bad. ;)

I'm not sure why you have to compare legacy games to other board games. There's no rule about it. However, if you must: Very few of my games would reach Pandemic Legacy's cost/pleasure ratio. I've got a fair number I haven't played or that I've only played a few times. In theory I might play all my games 100 times each, but in the real world that isn't happening. Resale? It's a pain. Unless it's out of print, you're going to get a fraction of the cost (and you have to take into account your packaging and shipping costs, as well as the utility cost of the time you spend going to the post office). With all that, Pandemic Legacy remains a bargain.
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I agree that this is a golden age of board gaming. It's great to see so many innovations and titles out there. Legacy isn't for me, but I can certainly understand its appeal. For me, I can think of some games that give me that "part of a bigger picture" feeling, like War of the Ring, that I can play again and again. But the underlying point is really about another genre of games that's bringing people to the hobby. It's no different than the popularity of Euros, War/Euros, etc. Even if I don't play it, anything that promotes and expands the hobby is bound to have good effects for all gamers.
 
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That's relatively true. But legacy games are designed for maximum effect if played through from beginning to end once over. If the story is told and the ending is known, the excitement is probably no longer there.

I am not arguing cost effectiveness. I am sure the games give value for content when measured against other entertainment options. I'd love to give it a shot but unless you have a steady game group which meets regularly, I don't think I will get the same enjoyment. I feel at least for me, the barrier of entry is slightly higher. Which is just too bad. I realized that some games are catering more to a specific audience.

But my argument stands that Legacy games can be designed such that it doesn't need to push for permanently changing the board so that it can be refreshed or reused. Yes, you can do it yourself, but I am sure there are many ways publishers can advocate these pseudo permanent changes in the official rule set and allow players to pass the game along.
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Quote:
But my argument stands that Legacy games can be designed such that it doesn't need to push for permanently changing the board so that it can be refreshed or reused.

By definition, they cannot.

What you are looking for is a campaign game. There are already many games that allow players to play a series of connected sessions where the effects of one session carry over into the next. Descent, Pathfinder, take your pick. Those games already exist and there is no question whether or not they can be designed.

Legacy games are a specific subset of campaign games that, by definition, employ permanent changes. That's what the term "legacy" is supposed to evoke: you leave your personal mark on the game. You can question whether that component is a worthwhile or enjoyable game mechanic, but it is integral to the Legacy concept.

This might seem like pedantry, and it kind of is, because ultimately I do agree with you: it should be possible to design campaign games with a reset button. And some of those games already exist as proof. They're just not Legacy games.
 
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ElAdoranSureshot wrote:
Quote:
But my argument stands that Legacy games can be designed such that it doesn't need to push for permanently changing the board so that it can be refreshed or reused.


This might seem like pedantry, and it kind of is, because ultimately I do agree with you: it should be possible to design campaign games with a reset button. And some of those games already exist as proof. They're just not Legacy games.


I guess I see your point. Perhaps what I am hoping for is a retooling of euro games into a campaign style gaming which does not involve leveling up or accumulating experience point ala Descent or Pathfinder. In other words, design campaign style gaming that is not a wargame or fantasy game. Does this already exist?

Legacy games have a place in the gaming world, just that I can't see it expanding far and wide in to the casual market. Which is fine. If I open a game cabinet and find a half way played through legacy game vs. monopoly, I will reach for monopoly.
 
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I think campaign games tend to be fantasy RPGs because of tradition, but you're right that they don't have to be. Maybe the current crop of non-fantasy legacy games will inspire more campaigns in other genres. Charterstone and Chronicles 1: Origins are upcoming.
 
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