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Festung Europa: The Campaign for Western Europe, 1943-1945» Forums » General

Subject: Strange User Ratings rss

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Pablo Diablo
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I do not have ordered Festung Europa, nor will I in the near future due to my current undertaking of finally getting to the table the unplayed games I already own.

Having said that I still take interest in it, because I suppose that the design is just my cup of tea and after all I might get a chance to play it with someone who owns it himself.

So as I checked Festung's BGG entry a little closer I came across the (until this very moment) 4 ratings for the game which are two times a 10 and two times a 1.

One of the 10's is from a dedicated playtester (nothing wrong with that) and the other one from somebody who's rating seems to be based on his strong anticipation for the game because it's predecessor was that good.

The latter should have hold back with his evaluation till he actually has played it.
But what really puzzles me are the two 1's!

They come from users which I don't presume to have been playtesters and at a moment when they couldn't have had the possibility to get to know the design.
Or should I say they come from someone - because if I look into their profiles I find two lists of games that have been rated a 1 which are nearly identical!
In addition to it with an exception of one single game all these designs rated so horribly come from the very Michael Rinella!

Conclusion:
Someone seems to have his personal vendetta with the designer.

(One of the scarce comments that accompany the ratings consequently says: Not in the habit of giving my hard earned money people like this designer. Well done, minus one more potential customer.

Wanted to share this observation because it left a very bad taste in my mouth. Even without having experienced the game I am grateful for it - and for people like Michael Rinella who produce them anyway.

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Eric Teoro
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Pablodiablo wrote:
Wanted to share this observation because it left a very bad taste in my mouth. Even without having experienced the game I am grateful for it - and for people like Michael Rinella who produce them anyway.


+1
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Colm McCarthy
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Pablodiablo wrote:
Conclusion:
Someone seems to have his personal vendetta with the designer.


The internet. As Alec Guinness famously says in the Mos Eisley scene in Star Wars - "Be careful, this place is full of assholes".
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Derry Salewski
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Well, you're not in charge of user ratings soooo there's that (probably good thing.)

Looking forward to trying it someday too!

(Every single game has ones and tens.)
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Chris Friend
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Interesting observation on the ratings Pablo. Especially since the company only started shipping the pre-orders yesterday!
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Carl Paradis
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I found the best thing to do is just to ignore it. yuk
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David G. Cox Esq.
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colmmccarthy wrote:
As Alec Guinness famously says in the Mos Eisley scene in Star Wars - "Be careful, this place is full of assholes".


My memory is going. I can't remember that scene.

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Richard Hellsten
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licinius wrote:
I found the best thing to do is just to ignore it. yuk
Ignore the BGG ratings. They are worse than useless and your life will be a lot happier afterwards.
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Michael McFall
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Any rating scale from 1 to 10 is always going to be flawed.

All games can fit on a scale of 1 to 2. You either like it or you don't. It's either playable or it's not.

Until that day, I wouldn't take it seriously.
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Michael Rinella
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Gents this may date back to a spring 2012 flame war involving Breakthrough Cambrai. I started it, it was wrong, I apologized, and I haven't done anything like that since. Most of the parties involved moved on long ago. A few, apparently, have not.

When you look at the ratings for my games the best indicator is the modal rating, not the average. Most of my designs have a modal rating of an "8" which I think is a good indicator they are not bad games - certainly not broken ones (which is what a "1" used to be or so I thought).

Michael Rinella
Designer, Festung Europa




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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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Sad to see the pettiness continue.

The worst though is what they did to Four Roads to Moscow. Regardless of how you feel about Michael Rinella (I think he is one of the best out there), obviously Roger Nord, John Prados, and Ted Raicer do not deserve an automatic 1.

Years ago I messaged all the men who gave it a 1. A few changed or removed their ratings. Most did not.
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Chris Friend
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Pinheads. As the saying goes, "I'll be the judge" whether I like it or not. I've never bought or didn't buy a game based on BGG ratings. I buy it because I like the topic and it looks interesting enough to spend the money.
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Charles Finch
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Until you have 100, maybe even 200+ ratings it is too skewed. Once you have that many it offsets these kind of crazy ratings as well as the 1 or 10 crowd. Also helps to find a few folks that regularly rate games and their ratings align with your taste - follow them
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Michael Rinella
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cfinchjr2 wrote:
Until you have 100, maybe even 200+ ratings it is too skewed. Once you have that many it offsets these kind of crazy ratings as well as the 1 or 10 crowd. Also helps to find a few folks that regularly rate games and their ratings align with your taste - follow them


I would agree. A game should have a standard deviation of maybe 1.00 give or take but if you look at my games they are closer to 2.00 and even higher than that in some cases. That should be a red flag something is strange.
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Judd Vance
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My simple rule is ignore ratings/rankings from the whole and pay attention to individuals. Find someone whose opinion you respect and click the down arrow by his/her name and click "Add Geekbuddy."

Then when you look at a game, skip the ratings and go to "Geekbuddy Analysis" and it will show you what your group of trusted advisors think and you can skip the losers with petty agendas.

If you put good comments with your games, I've either made you a Geekbuddy or will learn of you and do it in the future. I find the comments much more enlightening. Even when I don't agree with the opinion, I like to know what people liked and disliked about a game and then I'll decided if that is something that matters to me.

This is far more accurate at determining what games I will like than saying, "Game A got a 5.3 average rating from 15 users and Game B got a 6.2 rating from 93 users. I will like Game B more."
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Until a game has say 25+ ratings I don't really consider the average rating to be at all meaningful. Even then, as with Amazon book reviews, I find it useful to read the middling ratings that are substantiated by a comment explaining the rationale for the rating. Scroll past the gushing 10's and 9's because almost every game has them, read the comments in the 8 to 4 range, and stop reading when you get to the unsubstantiated ratings or "it sucks" comments in the 3 to 1 range.
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The comments are where the value is - not the ratings.

Having said that, I do hunt down the low scores on a lot of games and see what they comment on to 'prove' their rating - most don't have useful commentary to warrant believing their rating.
 
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Severus Snape
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It's the "Meh!" crowd who seem to have set their life's ambition to giving Mike a hard time, whenever possible; and, whenever possible, they should be ignored.

goo
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Martin Gallo
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michaelwmcfall wrote:
Any rating scale from 1 to 10 is always going to be flawed.

All games can fit on a scale of 1 to 2. You either like it or you don't. It's either playable or it's not.

Until that day, I wouldn't take it seriously.
I think this may be incorrect as it is possible to like the game but not like some aspects of it. Also note that if you are going to go "yes/no" you have entered the world of binary and the ratings would be 0 or 1.

To my mind it is not the rating system that is a problem, but the rater's themselves, many of whom seem to have an agenda or lack perspective/objectivity. It reduces the "trustworthiness" of the system. As someone mentioned the system does not really reflect anything useful until a game gets at least a 100 ratings (or so).

And, to be fair, every rating system is only as good as the data behind it, so most of them are going to be flawed.

whistle

I am a couple of cards in to the game and so far I like it. I am struggling with the counters a bit, finding the unit IDs too small and the reduced stripe in the SS counters too close in color to the rest of the counter.
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David G. Cox Esq.
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How strange to think that in a world where our legal and political systems are flawless that flaws would occur in a system as simple as rating games from one to ten.

Man, what is the world coming to?
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Michael McFall
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Quote:
I think this may be incorrect as it is possible to like the game but not like some aspects of it. Also note that if you are going to go "yes/no" you have entered the world of binary and the ratings would be 0 or 1.


Your totally "over-thinking it".
 
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Martin Gallo
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michaelwmcfall wrote:
Quote:
I think this may be incorrect as it is possible to like the game but not like some aspects of it. Also note that if you are going to go "yes/no" you have entered the world of binary and the ratings would be 0 or 1.


Your totally "over-thinking it".
I think you meant "You are" or "You're".whistle
 
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Michael McFall
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Thanks for proving my point.

Do you "over analyze" the situation when playing games too?

Are you going to dissect this post too?
 
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Martin Gallo
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Michael, relax a little. Learn to recognize and take a joke. Laughter cures a lot of what ails a person.

Enjoy the games. Have a great day.
 
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David Janik-Jones
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michaelwmcfall wrote:
Do you "over analyze" the situation when playing games too?

Are you going to dissect this post too?

While there's no right or wrong answer, you might consider adding a comma before the word "too" in both sentences. For example:

michaelwmcfall wrote:
Are you going to dissect this post, too?

It adds an emphasis to that word that might indicate a slight sarcasm or exasperation, changing the tone of the sentence.

I kid, I kid.



P.S. I'm married to an editor.
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