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Terraforming Mars» Forums » General

Subject: How Much Take That? rss

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Al Johnson
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This game looks awesome - especially because my wife and son love engine building game - me too. However, none of us real keen on games that have a take that element where you can really hurt an opponent.

So 3 quick questions:
1. How vicious would you describe the take that elements on the cards?
2. What percentage of cards (roughly speaking of course, have a take that element?
3. To what degree would it affect the game if you removed the take that cards from the game?

Thanks in advance!
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Joe Martineau
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I've seen maybe 20 cards with that sort of element. Generally they involve destroying another player's plants, though a few target banked victory points (in the form of animal/microbe resources). One particularly nasty one steals one titanium production (though it requires you to already have at least one production yourself).

A couple other cards (and general abilities) let you alter the map in a way that could be unfavorable to another player. I personally wouldn't consider those take that elements, but your milage may vary.

Generally I think the take that element is really light and you could probably dump those cards if you wished.

There is an element of set collection in the game, where cards have tags that serve as prerequisites for other things, so removing the offending cards might slightly affect the distribution of that. There are enough cards that it would be really minor, if so.
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Patrick Hillier
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I agree that the take that is not significant - also it is completely optional per the rules.
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Matt Smith
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phillier937 wrote:
I agree that the take that is not significant - also it is completely optional per the rules.

One minor correction to that statement. red-bordered loss of production is required, while red-bordered loss of resources is optional.

But yes, the amount of direct impact is very minor. I just finished a 2-player game (no CE cards) and I think we played a total of 2 cards that directly affected the opponent. And that's out of about 50-60 cards played. The most impactful of the two cards took 1 VP from one player and gave it to the other. And the player who played the card still lost by 2 points.
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Al Johnson
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Thanks to all. Looks like a buy!
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Jacob Fryxelius
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Many people have wondered about the take-that and if those cards can be removed.

There is definitely some take-that in TM. In total, 25 cards can decrease other players' resources or production, out of 208 cards.
Of these, half target plant resources or plant production, making plants the most vunerable resource, as well as the most valuable.
In general, take-that is very limited, and a greater part of the interaction instead comes from competing for milestones, awards, bonus steps and positions on the map. Plus drafting, of course.

If you absolutely HATE take-that in games, then you could remove all 25 cards, but I feel that would be a mistake, since it would almost remove 2 entire classes of cards; the animals (eat plants) and the asteroids (contributing to temperature). This would shift the balance in the game and make it less rich.

If you can stand just a little take-that, I'd suggest removing only the 10 most evil cards in the deck. This would leave the animals and most asteroids in the game. Here are the 10 cards I suggest be removed:
Deimos Down, Giant Ice Asteroid, Energy Tapping, Heat Trapping, Hackers, Sabotage, Virus, Asteroid Mining Consortium, Great Escarpment Consortium, and Power Supply Consortium. And maybe Hired Raiders too for its thematic evilness.

However, I still suggest you try the normal game first - it's really not that much take-that to begin with. And what is there is only there for thematic reasons.

Cheers!
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