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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » Variants

Subject: Lvl 2 Monster rewards rss

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Chris Buckley
United Kingdom
Stoke-on-Trent
Staffordshire
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So these have often felt a little underwhelming - I've played several full campaigns now with different groups, and every single group has remarked that the rewards for Lvl 2 monsters don't match the bump in difficulty - it's often better to hunt level 1 monsters when all you are getting is two extra resource cards.

Personally i think that level 2 is more about the challenge and fun of the game, but i do think these observations have merit - the increased stats, overwhelming darkness and increased time on the hunt board make hunting level 2 monsters much more dangerous than level 1 for what is a fairly small reward. While level 3 monsters can be devastating, their extra rewards seem to make it worthwhile (plus the extra cool stuff that you can get during encounters with level 3 monsters).

Does anyone have any thoughts about tweaking the rewards for Level 2 monsters? We've discussed the idea of changing the amount of monster resources from 4 basic / 6 monster to 3 basic / 7 monster. Often when we get to that part of the campaign where it feels we should go for level 2 monsters we find that we are looking for specific resources to help complete sets or build rare items and that might help scratch that itch too.
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Cameron Gould
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The longer time on the hunt board grants a higher chance of encountering profitable hunt events.

The increased health of the monster means more opportunities to critical for more resources.

The increased stats...really shouldn't be a problem if your equipment is up to snuff. The scariest aspect of level 2 monster can easily be mitigated once you get dash and surge so with a little strategy you should be dancing around those lions.

Sure its all chance but the potential for reward is practically double and I think the game adequately scales up the difficulty to match. You fight level 2s to gamble for a higher payout...not just 2 extra drops.
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Stuart Martyn
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I discovered a strange advantage to level two hunts in the late game - when I had a ssquad of absolute badasses the threat was fairly minimal, but the greater health meant I could harvest absolutely ridiculous amounts of bonus resources from crits. You need some decent luck and/or deadly weapons to make this work, though.
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ArtSchool
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campingcam64 wrote:
The longer time on the hunt board grants a higher chance of encountering profitable hunt events

The increased health of the monster means more opportunities to critical for more resources

The increased stats...really shouldn't be a problem if your equipment is up to snuff. The scariest aspect of level 2 monster can easily be mitigated once you get dash and surge so with a little strategy you should be dancing around those lions.

Sure its all chance but the potential for reward is practically double and I think the game adequately scales up the difficulty to match. You fight level 2s to gamble for a higher payout...not just 2 extra drops.


This a great point. Transit form level 1 to 2 is not as straightforward as +2 resource cards. There are many underlying effects that are to be counted too...
 
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Martin Welnicki
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The problem with all those pros you're listing is the randomness. You get more chance for this or that. This is not enough, as the chances for something horribly going wrong also go up and by a higher margin: this isn't even a chance, but a certainty, as the monsters are guaranteed to learn new tricks (like Cunning).

I know the game can be incredibly random in the events department, but the combat is 'more just'. Guaranteed increased difficulty should equal guaranteed increased profit for it to be mechanically sound; the current rewards are deemed not worth it by the majority of the community.

Chance for greater rewards (hunt events, crits) is also a moot point, since playing it safe (hunting mostly level 1) has been found to be the most effective way of beating the game. It's boring, but it works. This also goes for hunting the same monster several times in a row. I think introducing mixed armor sets is a 'soft patch' of this last problem, encouraging a more varied assortment of quarries.

I tried to create a variant that forced the players to differentiate the quarry type/level of each hunt, with moderate success (you can find it on the forums). I also increased the rewards, but it was just a straightforward bonus to resources gathered.
 
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Cameron Gould
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Your first point doesn't really make a lot of since to me since, by your logic (Monsters are guaranteed to be worse) survivors are guaranteed to be better since (unless you are crazy) you will also have learned some new tricks (like Sharp). So to me that evens out.

The "Guaranteed Increase in Profit" I also find a bit odd. Like you said, the game is incredibly random but come on, lets be honest. How are you not walking away from a level 2 fight with AT LEAST 1.5 times the reward of a level 1. You have to be King Captain Bad Luck of the S.S. Snake-eyes to leave a fight with nothing more then 2 extra drops in comparison. And even if that's the case then guess what? You get 2 extra drops and I think that fits rather nicely with the general theme of getting screwed over this game seems to have. If your looking for GUARANTEES you might want to look else ware. The Majority of the Community bit is well...I guess I can't argue with a majority but I still disagree.


 
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Martin Welnicki
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campingcam64 wrote:
Your first point doesn't really make a lot of since to me since, by your logic (Monsters are guaranteed to be worse) survivors are guaranteed to be better since (unless you are insane) you will also have learned some new tricks (like Sharp). So to me that evens out.


Not really. I cannot presuppose what the players have. They may be over-leveled/geared, for all I know, in which case it's fine, but that's beside the point. Even if I have a better sword, it gives me just a better chance at hitting. Things like more HP, higher movement, higher toughness, special abilities (Cunning) are automatic. Chance is not involved here.

In other words, let’s take the 'chance' out of the equation. There's not enough reward for the guaranteed increase in difficulty.

campingcam64 wrote:

The "Guaranteed Increase in Profit" I also find a bit odd. Like you said, the game is incredibly random but come on, lets be honest. How are you not walking away from a level 2 fight with AT LEAST 1.5 times the reward of a level 1. You have to be King Captain Bad Luck of the S.S. Snake-eyes to leave a fight with nothing more then 2 extra drops in comparison. And even if that's the case then guess what? You get 2 extra drops and I think that fits rather nicely with the general theme of getting screwed over this game seems to have. If your looking for GUARANTEES you might want to look else ware. The Majority of the Community bit is well...I guess I can't argue with a majority but I still disagree.


No, I get that the idea of the game is to screw you over. If the fight was mandatory, I would have no qualms about it, oddly. But you choose the level of a quarry and it just doesn't make sense to hunt level 2 monsters. It's not that I feel 'entitled' to get more at level 2; it's that I'm concerned a feature of the game (level 2) is neglected, because it doesn't make sense, mechanically, to hunt them. If a game element (like Survival of the Fittest) doesn't reward you proportionately to the alternative choice, players are just not going to use the former. I believe this may be the case with level 2 hunts, especially when the game conditions you to be careful and overestimate the opposition, rather than underestimate. I would like to see some more incentive for the level 2 hunts, so they might become more viable - to enrich the game experience.

For this same reason I would like the game to 'force' the players to seek varied quarries.





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Cameron Gould
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Sorry im doing this on my phone so I'm not good at doing fancy quote replies. But anyway the thing is that YES you can presume what the players have because, like you said, fighting level 2s is a choice. So you can guarantee your survivors will be better since you choose when that point is...unless you are crazy.

Edit: whoops sorry I forgot about the sword rebuttal. Yes the monster gets tougher and you have a chance to be tougher but...the game is controlled by chance. Rolling dice and whatnot. Taking chance out of the equation in a game controlled by chance to prove something isin't worth the chance is kinda fundamentally wrong isn't it? And even discouting that there are plenty of ways to make a survivor "automatically" better, matching the lions increase.

And the second point carries back to the gamble aspect I pointed out. Sometimes in a survival situation you gotta make tough decisions and sometimes you have to decide if the risk of a level 2 is worth the potential reward. Obviously you don't think it is, which is fine but I enjoy the fact that the game gives you the option to press your luck eairly in the game. Is it "practical" in the strictist sense? Maybe not if you are the Min-Maxing type but to reiterate on my previous point...a level 2 is more then just 2 extra drops.

I like the idea of forcing you to hunt different things though...like the nemisis system but with monsters.
 
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Fluid Karma
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We house ruled that we may choose the resources we get additionally from L2s, so that it is 4 random basic resources, 4 random monster resources and 2 monster resources of our choice. Keeps the motivation up, if we want to finish a specific set or build a peticular weapon and need special resources, without ruining the balance. At least that's what we feel.
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Joseph Nudi
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If you're careful with your resources and don't run into a ton of bad luck, the game keeps you close enough to the edge of almost getting what you want and actually seems to have a nice balance of just barely letting you get to your end state by the end of the game if you mix different level monsters.

By this I mean that fighting level one monsters will probably not get you to all of the sets or combinations of end game gear you're looking for in a reasonable timeframe. On the other hand, it is much lower risk and you can still be well-stocked for a final fight.

However, at some point you can make the jump to level two monsters with fairly low risk. How soon/late you pull the trigger on that step due to the rewards is up to you, but every other hunt you'll make the equivalent in monster resources (only) of another full lantern year of attacking only level one monsters. This is in addition to your crit ability increasing over time, resulting in more resources and doubly so again with increased monster health.

The game doesn't really encourage you to go out and get those level two monsters, no. But rather than add resources, I'd lower the incentives for level one monsters. Try adding a -1 basic, -1 monster resource for level one hunts after lantern year 8 or 10 or 12. That'll keep a nice balance, but give you the impetus you need to go get some level 2s. This will also stop you from taking a knee just before certain monsters and bosses with a simple level one fight (or it'll make you think twice).

Just my two cents.
 
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Eric Randolph
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I think Level 2 is worth it if you can farm them. I've only fought Level 3 just for giggles (generally calling it a side-scenario and resetting afterwards, even victory).
 
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Olli T
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Fluidkarma wrote:
We house ruled that we may choose the resources we get additionally from L2s, so that it is 4 random basic resources, 4 random monster resources and 2 monster resources of our choice. Keeps the motivation up, if we want to finish a specific set or build a peticular weapon and need special resources, without ruining the balance. At least that's what we feel.

Blueskew wrote:
The game doesn't really encourage you to go out and get those level two monsters, no. But rather than add resources, I'd lower the incentives for level one monsters. Try adding a -1 basic, -1 monster resource for level one hunts after lantern year 8 or 10 or 12.


I actually like both of these ideas. They give you something certain, but also force you to move on to L2 monsters at some point.
I'd like to combine these two for something like this (just a rough idea):

Whenever a new monster is introduced in a campaign, you'll get the full L1 rewards from it for the next 5 LYs. After that, you'll only get 6 cards for that type of L1 monster. You can choose which kind of cards you lose (i.e. if you desperately need some specific Lion resources in year 7, you can choose to take full 4 random Lion Resources and only 2 Random Basic Resources).

Then, if you keep hunting the Lion in the LY7, you should move on to Level 2 Lion to get the full benefits from the hunt. With Fluidkarma's method, I think you should be able to choose only one resource of your choice.

And around a year 20-ish you'll have to hunt only for the L3 monsters to get the full benefits. Never got that far myself, though. This may give you a bit too hard times, sorry.



Sometimes this variant may put your group into a hard situation where you must choose which one you need most at that point. Should we put down the last easy Lion or enjoy the friendliness of the last two L1 Spidiculeses in a row?


With this idea you can hunt L1 monsters this way (haven't received all of my expansions yet, so here's only some):

- White Lion / Gorm — continues to fully benefit you within LY1 - LY6
- Antelope / Spidicules — LY2 - LY7
- Phoenix — LY7 - LY12
- DBK / Sunstalker — LY8 - LY13
- Lion God — LY13 - LY18

But, as said, this is just a quick and dirty rough idea. It punishes and rewards you at the same time, I think.

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Steve Trewartha
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I think the rewards scale ok and particularly if you are trying for specific resources it is definitely worth fighting level 2's when you can. It is frustrating as hell to fight the same monster several times when all you are looking for is one particular resource item to finish what you are aiming for, but that is part of the game and allowing easier access of choice of resource would definitely decrease the difficulty a fair bit. For example I think on the dead monster terrain card there is the option to pick any specific resource you want if you roll a 10. Its pretty hard and rare to first get that terrain then roll high enough on it for that boost!

Having said all that, we have an accidental house rule that came about from not reading the book closely enough then deciding to keep it when we realised. Level 2's give 6 monster resources and 6 basic instead of 4 basic. I find that is plenty balanced and we go for level 2 as soon as possible.
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Matt Onyx
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Fluidkarma wrote:
We house ruled that we may choose the resources we get additionally from L2s, so that it is 4 random basic resources, 4 random monster resources and 2 monster resources of our choice. Keeps the motivation up, if we want to finish a specific set or build a peticular weapon and need special resources, without ruining the balance. At least that's what we feel.

Not to rehash the point made several times over, but this houserule is absolutely nuts. Maybe if it was two basic resources of your choice, but a lot of the challenge in the game is about not getting exactly what you want and getting by with what you have instead.
 
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Chris Buckley
United Kingdom
Stoke-on-Trent
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The difficulty isn't really at the heart of this issue for us - It's very possible to complete the game by only hunting level 1 monsters all the way through. It's not even really about the increased risk of hunting a level 2 either - the rewards just seem a bit underwhelming. We found that level 1 monsters feel about right in terms of reward, and so do level 3 monsters.

Level 2 doesn't seem quite as well balanced as the other 2 levels in terms of rewards. I just thing they need something to make it feel more worth it - even if it were along the lines of "the first time you defeat a level 2 (whatever) and have the (whatever innovation) in play, get (X).

X could be anything from choose a resource to a small stat buff for a survivor to extra proficiency bonus. Making it tied to specific innovations and having it as a one off bonus would encourage hunting different varieties of monster, and at the same time stop it from being something repeatedly exploitable. The fact that you need some specific innovations also means you would have to put some effort into making it happen. It could also give you another reason to take less popular innovations like Storytelling or Saga - it would even fit with those innovations in particular in a thematic manner.

Just my thoughts.
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