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Subject: [SOLVED] - Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really? rss

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Day Life
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So a question came up while we were working out what we did wrong in our last game so we played a cleaner game next run about the expansion monster "Leonx Rider"

Leonx Rider
Prowl: until the end of the battle, when an enemy unit
retreats from the battle you may rout a Leonx Rider to
destroy the unit."

In the FAQ it says this... .. .

Runewars_Corey_K_Answers_v15.pdf wrote:
Q: If the Latari Elves player draws cards for his Leonx
Rider units, and draws a single Orb, can only one Leonx
Rider use the Prowl ability?


A: No, a single Orb will allow any number of Leonx Rider
units in the battle to use Prowl during the battle (much like
the Flesh Ripper Unrelenting ability, or the Sorcerer
Undying ability – these affect all units of their type).


The rout and destroy retreating units after strength is tallied (otherwise there would be no retreating units) as well. Also this is a targeted ability so the Elf can choose what to destroy (usually your best unit)

This seams HUGELY overpowered.

With the "Flesh Ripper", "Sorcerer" and "Vampires" effect there is a rule about the effect not stacking. So if you have 3 Flesh Rippers and draw 1 or more orbs the effect only triggers once.

That would seam to me to be exactly how these guys should work as well. I get that they have a additional "rout" cost, but even so. These guys just seam to be over the top powerful.

So just to go through how these cats work.

• During the combat round a orb card must be draw for ONE of the cats present. This will trigger ALL the cats present.
• The Elf needs to WIN the entire combat. This means he needs to win the STRENGTH contest at the end of combat and trigger the opponent's to retreat.
• Then for each "retreating" unit the Elf can "rout" one of his cats to destroy it. This means that the cat is turned sideways to signify it is routed, but it dose not retreat out of the captured or defended hex. It also means that the effect is targeted, meaning the elf player can choose ANY of the retreating enemy units to destroy.

Solution
Designer has stepped in and responded to clear this all up!


The Designer FAQ
Designer FAQ wrote:
Q: If the Latari Elves player draws cards for his Leonx
Rider units, and draws a single Orb, can only one Leonx
Rider use the Prowl ability?

A: No, a single Orb will allow any number of Leonx Rider
units in the battle to use Prowl during the battle (much like
the Flesh Ripper Unrelenting ability, or the Sorcerer
Undying ability – these affect all units of their type).


Rules Question wrote:
1) The retreat step of the "resolution" phase of the battle is still considered "part of the battle". The Cats can target the retreating opponent models after the strength tally. OR, do you need to force a retreat "during" the battle, like say with the Sorceresses and the normal retreat step is to late for the ability to activate.

Corey's Response

The “Resolution” phase of the battle is part of the battle. You can definitely use this ability during the retreat step.

Rules Question wrote:
2) If you can use the ability during the retreat step of the resolution dose the elf player get to choose what opponent model to destroy or dose his opponent pick the model form his retreating units.

Corey's Response
The elf player would choose which unit to destroy.

Rules Question wrote:
3) Are the Cats the same as the Flesh Rippers whom all trigger but the effects are worded so the effects can not stack. So if you have 3 cats and draw 1-3 orbs only one cat can destroy an opponent model, or can all three cats trigger at the end of the battle.

Corey's Response

Each Leonx rider can trigger this ability. However routed Leonx riders cannot trigger this.
 
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Mark Bauer
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
Revisit your question with the following information:
The retreat after the battle is not part of the battle. The Riders ability is only usable "until the end of battle".
 
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Day Life
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
Anduin wrote:
Revisit your question with the following information:
The retreat after the battle is not part of the battle. The Riders ability is only usable "until the end of battle".



wait.. what?

So if you win the strength test and the opponent retreats... that is "after" the battle and then nothing can be destroyed by the cats..

Are you saying that you need to have some kind of 2nd effect to force a retreat during the battle?
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
DayinDaLife wrote:
Anduin wrote:
Revisit your question with the following information:
The retreat after the battle is not part of the battle. The Riders ability is only usable "until the end of battle".



wait.. what?

So if you win the strength test and the opponent retreats... that is "after" the battle and then nothing can be destroyed by the cats..

Are you saying that you need to have some kind of 2nd effect to force a retreat during the battle?


Exactly. This 2nd effect is also called "Sorceress"
 
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Day Life
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
Ok, so that changes their power level in a major way.

So you need some kind of 2ndary effect to force a INSTANT retreat of some kind before strength is tallied for the Cats to trigger.

I believe you but would like to see a confirmation on this just to be safe.
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
DayinDaLife wrote:
Ok, so that changes their power level in a major way.

So you need some kind of 2ndary effect to force a INSTANT retreat of some kind before strength is tallied for the Cats to trigger.

I believe you but would like to see a confirmation on this just to be safe.


Right.
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
DayinDaLife wrote:
Ok, so that changes their power level in a major way.

So you need some kind of 2ndary effect to force a INSTANT retreat of some kind before strength is tallied for the Cats to trigger.

I believe you but would like to see a confirmation on this just to be safe.

You can seek confirmation from the official homepage. There you can ask questions to the designer.
I could quote the rules, but the only thing that comes to mind is the paragraph that says "the term battles only referes to the situation when units are fighting against each other"... something along the lines.

Yes, the Lenox Riders are actually not very strong, but they harmonize nicely with the Sorceress. You only need one orb for the riders and you can snipe away every unit that your sorceress force to retreat with their ability. Since the sorceress ability is now also targeted (since the revised edition), they can really take out some big things together.
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
Anduin wrote:
Revisit your question with the following information:
The retreat after the battle is not part of the battle. The Riders ability is only usable "until the end of battle".

This is not correct. Retreat is part of the battle sequence (specifically, it's part of Step 7, Resolution).

In the games I've done, the ability is far from overpowered. First off, it only allows you to destroy one retreating unit per Leonx Rider. Sure, it only takes one orb to trigger the ability for all Leonx Riders, but for each unit you destroy, you have to rout a Leonx Rider. I've found it uncommon to have more than a couple of these in any given battle. They are decent units, being Rectangle, but because they are only 1 health, they die pretty easily, and routing them to kill off retreating units can be very dangerous if there is a possibility of counterattack.
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
I agree, Retreat is part of the battle sequence, but the Lenox Rider ability is not applicable for this step, because no units are fighting anymore.
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
Anduin wrote:
I agree, Retreat is part of the battle sequence, but the Lenox Rider ability is not applicable for this step, because no units are fighting anymore.

They are fighting each other until the battle sequence is finished. You only quoted part of the rulebook, because it also says "Each battle is resolved as follows" then goes through the entire sequence (which includes the Resolution phase). "Fighting each other" is a descriptive term, but it's the battle sequence that defines when the battle ends.

Given your interpretation of "fighting each other", where do you see that only Step 4 would fit? The ability says "end of battle", which is the whole sequence, not just step 4. The phrase is not defined, except in the context of "a battle is fighting each other; here's how to do a battle", and that includes Step 7.

However, I'll submit the question to Corey so he can give official confirmation on that.
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
Another point:

Both the Flesh Ripper and Sorcerer abilities use the "end of battle" phrase. If you interpret this to mean the same as you are for Leonx Riders, that would mean as soon as step 4 is over, the ability ends, and thus any Flesh Ripper or Sorcerer that had a damage assigned to it would immediately die because now they only have 1 health.

This would pretty much defeat the purpose of those abilities! Obviously, the ability would apply until the end of the entire sequence, as any earlier than Step 7b would cause them to die (since you don't remove damage tokens until that point).
 
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Day Life
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
yeah, this is why I wanted some confirmation... I can not see any reason to think that the retreat is not part of the battle. In the rule book they clearly have the steps of the battle and IN the battle there is "resolution" and retreat is part of that step of the battle?



 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
Yes indeed.

I don't think it's too strong. A single Leonx Rider only has a 20% chance of getting an orb (with a clean deck). It takes 3 Leonx Riders to approach 50%. And then it depends on the Leonx Riders surviving (which the Latari player generally has control over, but it may require sacrificing other units).

In the games I've played with them, it's never been a problem.
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
Hmmm... I think it is a extremely strong ability. There are a few things about it though that make it strong that we "could" be doing wrong in our games. (assuming the ability triggers on the normal retreat step)

1) Is the ability "targeted"... I think it is. As the player can rout his cat when he likes, can he choose the enemy unity to destroy. Or dose it rout as they "all retreat at once in a single step" and then the retreating player picks which model to destroy.

2) The flesh ripper as another example with a ability like this can only be activated once.. so say you have 3 Rippers, and draw 3 orbs, you still only activate the ability once. I know that the cats have a extra cost which is them routing themselves. Still, do they also work like that. As in if you have 3 cats, and draw 3 orbs, you can only rout one cat to destroy?
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
DayinDaLife wrote:
Hmmm... I think it is a extremely strong ability. There are a few things about it though that make it strong that we "could" be doing wrong in our games. (assuming the ability triggers on the normal retreat step)

1) Is the ability "targeted"... I think it is. As the player can rout his cat when he likes, can he choose the enemy unity to destroy. Or dose it rout as they "all retreat at once in a single step" and then the retreating player picks which model to destroy.

2) The flesh ripper as another example with a ability like this can only be activated once.. so say you have 3 Rippers, and draw 3 orbs, you still only activate the ability once. I know that the cats have a extra cost which is them routing themselves. Still, do they also work like that. As in if you have 3 cats, and draw 3 orbs, you can only rout one cat to destroy?

Every unit is not created equal.
Nor should they be.
As long as OVERALL everything is mostly balanced between the factions it's fine. Variety makes it interesting.
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
DayinDaLife wrote:
Hmmm... I think it is a extremely strong ability. There are a few things about it though that make it strong that we "could" be doing wrong in our games. (assuming the ability triggers on the normal retreat step)

1) Is the ability "targeted"... I think it is. As the player can rout his cat when he likes, can he choose the enemy unity to destroy. Or dose it rout as they "all retreat at once in a single step" and then the retreating player picks which model to destroy.

The Latari player does get to choose, though he doesn't choose until they actually start retreating. At the end of battle, they all retreat at once, so they could choose which retreating unit to destroy.

Quote:
2) The flesh ripper as another example with a ability like this can only be activated once.. so say you have 3 Rippers, and draw 3 orbs, you still only activate the ability once. I know that the cats have a extra cost which is them routing themselves. Still, do they also work like that. As in if you have 3 cats, and draw 3 orbs, you can only rout one cat to destroy?

Well, with 3 rippers, it's true that 3 orbs doesn't do anything, but it affects ALL Flesh Rippers. So if you had 8 flesh rippers, and one pulled an Orb, all 8 of them would get 3 health. The ruling that they don't activate more than once is basically just saying that if you pull 2 orbs, they don't go up to 5 health.

So with the Leonx riders, only one orb is needed to trigger the ability, and then any Leonx riders can use them.

I think for me, though, while the ability is strong, Leonx Riders themselves are pretty weak - they only have 1 health. Warriors are a bit more robust, even if slower, so it's often a tough trade to decide "do I want a Warrior or a Leonx rider?" (If I get a Reinformcents card, I'll almost always pick the Rectangle option to get 2 Pegasus Riders, though, because they are probably the best unit, I'd say better than Forest Guardians in most cases).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's weak, I just don't think it's overpowered. And it depends on the game situation, too - sometimes, routing the Leonx riders can hurt you during a counterattack, because now they aren't there to fight the next battle! This becomes especially pointed in 3-4 player games.

However, if it only triggered in conjunction with the Sorceress unit, it would be an extremely WEAK ability, and I don't think I would really ever want to take a Leonx Rider unless I already have my Warriors on the board.
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
corkysru wrote:
Every unit is not created equal.


• Fast
• Can be turned into Hex Units (so count strength even if routed)
• Can send targeted damage (most other effect targets in game are chosen by your opponent)
• Can destroy your best guy. Dragons, Ogers .. whatever your best unit is, they kill it.
• Has low initiative.

Damn right not all models are created equal.
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
DayinDaLife wrote:
• Can be turned into Hex Units (so count strength even if routed)

Not quite. The Predator's Will card says "During battle, Leonx Riders resolve Fate cards as if they were Hexagon units." So they only count as Hex units when drawing cards; they are still considered Rectangle units for all other purposes. They do not get to add the +1 strength even if routed, and they could still be affected by the Warlock ability, for instance.

Basically, all that card does is let them look at the Hexagon section instead of the Rectangle section when drawing fate cards for them - nothing more

Quote:
• Can send targeted damage (most other effect targets in game are chosen by your opponent)

Most damage effects are, but there are several other abilities where the "activating" player chooses, including the Chaos Lord and the Dragon. In fact, almost ALL the Latari orb abilities let the Latari player choose their target; the Forest Guardian is the only one that doesn't! It's kind of the modus operandi of the Latari Elves.


Quote:
• Can destroy your best guy. Dragons, Ogers .. whatever your best unit is, they kill it.

So can the Warrior. Or, if an Archer gets an Orb, they can target a Dragon with it, forcing all future damage to go to the dragon, which will likely kill it if you have a decent sized battle.


The Warrior ability in particular is pretty nice; while it does require an orb for each effect, if you do trigger it, it can destroy ANY damaged or routed unit! So if you are fighting the Elves, and they have warriors, you may want to think twice about using your big units to soak up damage until after the Warriors have gone!


(It's kind of interesting, because there is another thread that was active recently talking about how weak the Latari Elves are compared to the other factions..... Which indicates some of it could just depend on the groupthink and play styles of the players!)
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
DayinDaLife wrote:

• Can be turned into Hex Units (so count strength even if routed)

I don't think upgraded leonxes count strength when routed?
Iirc they count as hex only for purposes of combat cards, not for all purposes. Strength while standing certainly seems more of an "all" purpose than a "combat card" purpose.

edit: ninjaed
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
sigmazero13 wrote:
DayinDaLife wrote:
• Can be turned into Hex Units (so count strength even if routed)

Not quite. The Predator's Will card says "During battle, Leonx Riders resolve Fate cards as if they were Hexagon units." So they only count as Hex units when drawing cards; they are still considered Rectangle units for all other purposes. They do not get to add the +1 strength even if routed, and they could still be affected by the Warlock ability, for instance.

Basically, all that card does is let them look at the Hexagon section instead of the Rectangle section when drawing fate cards for them - nothing more


Oh ok.. that makes sense. So t just means that they trigger of the HEX quadrant of the fate card.. is that what you are saying?

sigmazero13 wrote:
DayinDaLife wrote:
• Can destroy your best guy. Dragons, Ogers .. whatever your best unit is, they kill it.

So can the Warrior. Or, if an Archer gets an Orb, they can target a Dragon with it, forcing all future damage to go to the dragon, which will likely kill it if you have a decent sized battle.


The Warrior ability in particular is pretty nice; while it does require an orb for each effect, if you do trigger it, it can destroy ANY damaged or routed unit! So if you are fighting the Elves, and they have warriors, you may want to think twice about using your big units to soak up damage until after the Warriors have gone!


The difference is that all those other effects require much more work. Every time you win a battle the opponent retreats. The Archer you still need to produce the damage to actually kill and with the warrior there needs to be damage on the model to begin with. Both are easily played around... There is NO WAY to play around the cat ability.

sigmazero13 wrote:
(It's kind of interesting, because there is another thread that was active recently talking about how weak the Latari Elves are compared to the other factions..... Which indicates some of it could just depend on the groupthink and play styles of the players!)


They are playing them wrong then. Admittedly I had (I think this thread is confusing) 1 aspect wrong about the strength tally.

You want to use cats as a defensive unit. The FAST action means that they can basically get all over the map with no problem defending huge chunks of land. Opponent attacks, and uses his good units to win, and then you have a super powerful counter attack, much more potent than other factions.
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
So this is the second game the OP has played and now we're to be convinced that the Latari are the strongest faction in the game? And everyone else is playing them wrong, eh?

It's barely possible. But what is being harshly discounted is the vast range of outcomes possible beyond a couple of game experiences.

The FAST trait by no means allows units to 'get all over the map with no problem' as if three tiles is the radius of the map and as if there are no mountain barriers, water, etc. They can only defend huge chunks of land if they have the right card picked to do so in relation to the overall strategy being pursued. Many other factors are significant.

Broad brushstrokes painted over the evident background of conflicting experiences isn't going to be convincing. No matter how passionately argued in an attempt to overwhelm other views. kiss
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
The discussion about strategy and the power of the units is not the point of this thread it is the mechanical functionality of them.

Honosbinda wrote:
So this is the second game the OP has played and now we're to be convinced that the Latari are the strongest faction in the game? And everyone else is playing them wrong, eh?


Actually I have played the game many many times but I have had it on the shelf for about 4 years. Though the expansion is new. You should probably check your rude behavior at the door before commenting on BGG.

 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
Okay, you've played the expansion twice.

So you think it's rude to point out you might be wrong, but it's okay for you to do the same? Yeah, I've run into that before.

Let me suggest you provide better evidence to support your argument that everyone else is playing the unit wrong. For example, share the result of 20 playings, rather than 2. Your experience from 4 years ago, as you have pointed out, is not relevant.
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
Let's not let this thread drift into a flamewar please.
Let's just wait for Coreys confirmation (if he even responses anymore, since he seems to have taken other duties at FFG...)
 
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Re: Leonx Rider - Orb Trigger... all of them.. really?
Anduin wrote:
Let's just wait for Coreys confirmation (if he even responses anymore, since he seems to have taken other duties at FFG...)

He's always responded to my rules questions, even some fairly recently. It can take a week or two on occasion, but I've not been left hanging
 
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